Topic: Injection

[Rocking-M]

Anyone out there converted to fuel injection?
It would seem that the carbs could be gutted and injectors installed.
Any thoughts?

[Pinhead]

I was thinking the same thing, was going to try to install and program a MegaSquirt, but being a poor college student doesn't lends itself to spending that much dough on my bike...

[Rocking-M]

I was gonna mention mega squirt. I'm planning to mega squirt the fiat this winter (if budget allows:))
So that may be an option for the honda too! Interesting.

[Geeto67]

Posa carbs were a crude mechanical injection back in the 70's (hard to call it true injection - about halfway between a carb and injection).

To be honest the stock carbs are so reliable and easy to tune that fuel injection dosen't make much sense - espically with the added fabrication of adding a fuel pump and return feeds. It is unlikely that there will be any benefit to FI a stock motor other than to show off that you did it and it is possible. Now if you were going to add a power adder like nitrous or a turbo then FI starts to make sense since traditionally these are areas where the stock carbs prove inadiquate.

There are two ways I have thought about doing it and here they are:

1) I would use a (Wayne and Son) Log manifold with an adapter for a honda car throttle body. The manifold would have small car injectors at each intake port. Using a mega squirt controller to power the whole thing and an O2 sensor in the exhaust. Fuel pump would be a small aftermarket electric one for honda cars. The system would be Throttle position sensor not mass air so programming a map would take some time. With this setup I could see plumbing a turbo and nitrous fairly easily into the system. I envisoned the engine would be an 836 kit wilt 8 1/2 compression (they used to make those kits - are they still around?) and a short duration cam.

2) would be to adapt a cbr throttle body setup to the bike. Haven't really played with this idea too much but modern bikes are FI. some of the earlier FI cbrs are TPS and cable actuated (unlike the R1 which has the TPS sensor in the throttle grip itself - necessitating the use of the R1 computer).

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

The 3/4 midget racer guys have been using fuel injection on the 750 engine for quite some time. There is a bolt on system still available. Hilborn I believe. Many of these guys are switching from the 750 engine to more modern power plants as there rules allow. This group is a good source for NOS and used parts. 

[Geeto67]

The 3/4 midget racer guys have been using fuel injection on the 750 engine for quite some time. There is a bolt on system still available. Hilborn I believe. Many of these guys are switching from the 750 engine to more modern power plants as there rules allow. This group is a good source for NOS and used parts. 

some drag racers use the hilborn and kinsler systems also, the old systems are mechanical injection and not really suitable for street and part throttle applications. However there are plenty of companies that do EFI hilborn conversions for cars (including hilborn themselves) and it would pe possible to convert the mechanical setup to EFI. The modern EFI is hella expensive ($3000 starting)

[Pinhead]

I'd rather use a "DIY" system like the MegaSquirt. I'd think you could build the system for a lot less than $3000...

[Nate]

The MegaSquirt option does seem like a less expensive option, but damn that's some heavy stuff. Definately for someone with time and money on their hands, in other words not me 

[VitaminCB550]

I would think that there would be a significant increase in electrical draw... Wouldn't this be an issue? 

[MRieck]

I would think that there would be a significant increase in electrical draw... Wouldn't this be an issue? 

Yes IMO

[Pinhead]

I would think that there would be a significant increase in electrical draw... Wouldn't this be an issue?

It would definately increase electrical draw on an already mediocre charging sytsem. However, if someone were to put the time into their bike it would take to add fuel injection, tune it, and make it run right, they would probably also replace the stock alternator components with higher output aftermarket ones.

[Pinhead]

So is there anybody that's worked with Megasquirt, etc.?

[Geeto67]

So is there anybody that's worked with Megasquirt, etc.?

I found this link kinda interesting, It is fuel injection conversion to a two stroke RZ350:

http://www.smcomp.com/~smurph/RZ-EFI/index.html

It is really a nice look at the work involved in a conversion.

As far as the charging system, go find an old magneto setup to run the motor and just keep the stock alternator to charge the battery, frees up a lot of current if the battery isn't firing the cylinders anymore.

[cafetero1]

Lots of useful information here: 

http://cb1100f.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13119&highlight=megasquirt

About halfway down on page 8 of the thread, there is a video link.  It shows the absolutely nasty throtle response this product will get you.  While in the video link, take a look at his 'stompin the 900 fulie'.  Insane.  Gotta love it though. 

[bill440cars]

I would think that there would be a significant increase in electrical draw... Wouldn't this be an issue?

It would definitely increase electrical draw on an already mediocre charging system. However, if someone were to put the time into their bike it would take to add fuel injection, tune it, and make it run right, they would probably also replace the stock alternator components with higher output aftermarket ones.

            And where is it that you're going to get these "Higher Output Aftermarket Alternator Components? Seems  to me that I've seen several posts on Wanting a better charging system for the 550s and, to my recollection, nobody has any answers. I believe that the "Better Charging System" with or without going to fuel injection. I mean, if improving the lighting on the bike taxes the charging system, then that should be the area that needs tending to first. Just my opinion, and some others. If you're seriously thinking about fuel injection, you should also do some improving on the motor itself (intake, cam and exhaust). Won't do much good to shove the fuel mixture in, if it can be taken care of efficiently and gotten rid of effectively, you know? I have to go with Geeto & MRjeck's comments.

                                                        Later on, Bill

[dusterdude]

injected?,i`d rather be blown.

[bill440cars]

injected?,i`d rather be blown.

             I'm not touching that one.

[dusterdude]

thank you

[Hockers Choppers]

I was waiting for a comment about building up a mega squirt!!

[Hockers Choppers]

I just got rid of my 2003 ultra glide with efi. I had a 2-1 header, cams and the harley race tuner for the efi in the bike. It was a nightmare, I never did get that pos to run right. I was happy to get back to carbs, even though 4 carbs are a real pita to tune also. But at least I don't have to take it to a shop that charges $55 an hour to work on it. If I could leave something stock it would solve alot of my problems, but that would be way to easy.

[Pinhead]

And where is it that you're going to get these "Higher Output Aftermarket Alternator Components? Seems to me that I've seen several posts on Wanting a better charging system for the 550s and, to my recollection, nobody has any answers. I believe that the "Better Charging System" with or without going to fuel injection. I mean, if improving the lighting on the bike taxes the charging system, then that should be the area that needs tending to first. Just my opinion, and some others. If you're seriously thinking about fuel injection, you should also do some improving on the motor itself (intake, cam and exhaust). Won't do much good to shove the fuel mixture in, if it can be taken care of efficiently and gotten rid of effectively, you know? I have to go with Geeto & MRjeck's comments.

 Later on, Bill

I've seen aftermarket charging systems for the 650/750 models, but haven't really looked for parts for the 550. It's all about how much you want to spend on the parts. You can buy a $220 stator and $400 rotor from online retailers that claim 400 clean watts out, which is about 30 amps. Plenty to run these bikes with a computer controller.

I also agree that you would want to build the engine to take advantage of the injection system. I plan on (within the next 10 years ) building a SOHC4 utilizing fast burn technology and computer controll components. I've already emailed Larry Windmer (www.theoldone.com)... He builds engines that make 1hp/cc. I won't be getting that much out of an old SOHC (being air-cooled, and would blow head gaskets and heads) but 1/4 hp/cc should be possible.

The injection would be required to make the full throttle range usefull throughout the entire RPM band. Megasquirt's can be programed for highway cruising mileage, as well as WOT (18:1 A/F ratio at cruise, 14.7:1 under moderate acceleration, and 12:1 at WOT). I'd use a MAF sensor, MAP sensor, knock sensor, and wideband O2 sensor.

Here's a video with a DOHC CB900 FI'd. Watch the throttle response.

I just got rid of my 2003 ultra glide with efi. I had a 2-1 header, cams and the harley race tuner for the efi in the bike. It was a nightmare, I never did get that pos to run right. I was happy to get back to carbs, even though 4 carbs are a real pita to tune also. But at least I don't have to take it to a shop that charges $55 an hour to work on it. If I could leave something stock it would solve alot of my problems, but that would be way to easy.

There's a difference, though. If you put a Megasquirt together you don't have to pay someone to work on it. You hook the thing up to your laptop and tune it yourself. The "stock" injection isn't really tuned to be the most efficient, anyway. You can easily get more power and more mileage if you tune it yourself with disregard to emissions, etc.

This guy used 2003 gsxr600 injection bodies on his 900F and a megasquirt. The subject is pretty interesting. Seems worth it.

http://cb1100f.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=megasquirt&start=0

[Hockers Choppers]

Hey Doug, When are going to stop in Victoria ? My bike is in a million pieces and I need someone to put it back together . The race tuner I had could be hooked up to a laptop, but your just guessing at it unless you have it on a dyno with an exhaust gas analizer. Seat of the pants tuning will only get you close and takes a lot of time. I was getting 82 hp and 90 ft lbs of torqe out of an 88 ci engine. Pretty good for a Harley. Was only getting 30 mpg  .  Thats the main reason I sold it and found a sohc to play with. I can't wait to get it back together with the big bore, cam, ported head, cr carbs, etc. I'll dyno it when I get it done. Stock it had 54 hp and 35 lbs. any guess's with the new stuff? Has anyone else dyno'ed a big bore cam setup?

[bill440cars]

          Doug,  Gotta hand it to you. I didn't know about the aftermarket charging systems and what you said the price range was tells me I don't want to know about them. Too expensive for me. 

                                                             Later on,  Bill

[old750]

Hey Pinhead, I've been looking for a better charging system on my 750k2. I had a post a few weeks ago inquiring about possible better charging systems but no luck. Who sells a 400 Watt charging system???

[Pinhead]

Let me see if I can find that link again...