Author Topic: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver ( 5/20/17 update )  (Read 33324 times)

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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2015, 06:40:43 PM »
    Long time no see every one, I haven't been posting much lately because I've been too busy riding the bike. Ive been doing a fair amount of work to the 500 trying to get the engine tuned just right. Last time I left off I thought I was running lean after cleaning my plugs, but after further testing I found my timing had slipped way off causing the engine to run hot. After much tinkering I found that all my timing issues were caused by the cheap diachi points I was using, it's just criminal that such junk parts are allowed to be marketed for these bikes. I put in a set of tech points and bingo, five minutes later my timing was spot on without having to do any shady modifications to get the timing right.
    This set me back on my quest to find the correct jetting for my altitude I had my #92 jets drilled out to 96's but haven't tried them yet. right now Im running #98 mains #40 slows and  I moved my needles to the second clip position from the top with a single needle shim, giving me the effect of half a clip position above the middle clip position.
I believe I am still running slightly rich as my gas millage is still somewhat poor, at an altitude of 8000+msl I get 37mpg and at 4000+msl I get 43mpg, I believe if I try #92 mains and #38 slows I may be as close to the proper jetting as I can get.
    I just finished doing the 1500 mile oil change after rebuilding the top end of the engine, Im glad to report there are still no leaks on the top end and my compression numbers are 150psi on all 4 cylinders using my cheap harbor freight compression gauge to check them. Ive been checking my valves and timing about every 300 miles to ensure everything is running smoothly. For the oil change I used BellRay EXL 20w50 mineral oil with a 1/3 of a quart of zinc ZDP additive. The BellRay oil seems to really agree with the engine as it seems to be quieter and the clutch no longer slips when taking off in first. I just ordered a bunch of parts to rebuild my forks and replace my unsightly fork gators. I also ordered new seals to replace the leaking ones behind the clutch actuator cover, driving air cooled vw's Im used to leaving oil spots where ever I park but I want the CB500 to be the exception. Ill try and take some good pictures of the fork rebuild to keep everyones interest. Besides that all I can say is Im having a blast riding the 500 every chance I can get and racking up the miles.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #101 on: June 16, 2015, 03:55:06 PM »
Sorry to hear the Daiichi bugs bit you, too! The only ones I have seen last at all were the ones I used to test my prototype Transistor Ignition back in 2006 or so. Since that removes all the loads, they lasted with no timing shift for 6 seasons before I did my rebuild. Then I put in new TEC, anyway. I'll probably never have to change them again?

How do you like rain riding? It's been so wet down here my shed is STILL full of water, now 7 weeks. :(
The garage got water last weekend under that big, black front that rained all Friday night, too. My bike is STILL where you last saw it, but at least it is dry!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #102 on: June 17, 2015, 10:55:16 PM »
At the rate it's been raining it might not be a bad idea to fit floats and paddles to your 750 Mark. Ive been doing my best to avoid all the rain showers lately but I have been caught in a couple so far, one storm I got caught in dumped so much water I started to lose spark on my #4 cylinder. I believe the water worked its way in to the the spark plug cap and was allowing it to short to the cylinder head.
   Im taking a break from messing with jetting right now, its pretty darn close as it sits and Im beginning to over think it. My next focus will be upgrading the ignition system, Im thinking Ill save up for a set of dyna coils and one of Mark's transistorized ignitions. After that I think Ill sell a kidney or two so that I can afford a 4into1 exhaust ;).
   I just finished freshening up the front breaking system today with new pads, new brake fluid, and a general cleaning of all the different components. Im just waiting for my new fork gators to arrive and Ill be diving in to the fork rebuild within the next week.

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2015, 06:54:48 AM »
Over here we're supposed to have a bit of a break here these next several days.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2015, 10:27:08 AM »
I went on a ride the other day with my buddy and his monstrous 1100cc Yamaha V-Star, we rode down to Deckers on the Platte and were going to ride on Foxton and county rode 67 to Sedalia but the river was so high it had closed all of Foxton so we had to turn back. It was a good ride though about 60-70 miles round trip. The bike ran great as usual, and I got a few good pictures of it at the scenic overlook on 126.




Ive noticed with my current jetting after a ride at lower elevation the bike runs smoother and the plugs have a better brown coloration, but on rides at higher elevations like the one the other day it doesn't have the same power, has poorer gas millage, and the plugs are black and sooty. Im hoping a set of dyna 5 ohm coils will give me better spark and compensate for the power loss at altitude. With the dyna 5 ohm coils which spark plug caps work best? The stock Honda resistor caps or should I go for a set of the lower ohm NGK caps?

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2015, 11:18:24 AM »
Cal is spot on. With those altitude ranges, you need to adjust your carburetors to a happy medium that will work in the sweet spot range where you ride most.  Unfortunately, you cannot lean out the mix on the fly when you ascend.  EFI seems to handle the changes better, but has it limits, too.

Your buddy with the monstrous VMax probably wished he had your tossible middle weight bike when you got into the twisties. 
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
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Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2015, 05:50:47 PM »
I was just there there other day Dan! I have never seen the river like this before. I made it to where they've started putting in new asphalt and turned around to head back to Deckers but saw several houses under water. The day after I went they shut the river down.

Just for reference...yesterday I went for a ride. You and I are pretty darn close in altitude. I wanted to run over to Cripple Creek. I have a slight boggle at just a hair above 1/4 throttle where the motor pops ever so slightly. Give it just a hair more throttle and life is good. Back off just a hair and things are fine too. Cripple Creek is probably 9600ish' but there's a real good drop down into town and it's gotta top out at a bit over 10 before the final descent. Well the closer I got to that spot the worse things got at that 1/4 throttle. It was really popping and losing power the higher up I went. I suspected it was doing this because it was rich at that point but didn't know for sure. I was worried about dropping #4 so I turned around and headed down again and within a few thousand feet everything was back to normal. Then I decided to run down to Colorado Springs and see what happened at that same throttle spot (CS is around 5500'). By the time I got down there the motor didn't pop at all. So it was interesting only in that it confirmed some things for me. Within an hour I changed 5000'+. Sometimes I wonder if I should have a different bike but a difference of 5000' is huge. I believe Cal is right and I think I'm real close to being at a compromise with the carb settings.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2015, 07:08:03 PM »
Right now I'm still running the stock points and coils but I want to upgrade to the dyna coils and Mark's transistorized ignition in oder to squeeze out all the performance I can out of the ignition system. The stock spark plug boots are something like 10k ohm's while the ngk's are 5k ohms, so i was just wondering which set of boots work best with the 5ohm dyna coils.
   I've been batting around the idea of upgrading my 4into2 exhaust to either a Carpy or Lossa engineering 4into1. I've heard mixed reviews on 4into1's on the 500's as they can cause more trouble than they're with if they aren't designed correctly. I'm also wondering if the 4into1 will flow any better than the 4into2.
   I think I'm being a little too picky with the jetting because I don't have any stumbling at idle or bogging at WOT. I just feel like the performance isn't there for an engine that's been freshly rebuilt with ported,polished, and decked heads.

Offline brett_bike

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2015, 08:37:34 PM »
River fever and DesertDan,

We should get the 500's together and compare notes.

I've been chasing a stumble since installing the MotoGP werks exhaust. It's better but I'd like to see what others are experiencing.

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2015, 09:00:56 PM »
I would love to get together and ride and see both of your bikes. I'd also love for someone else that rides a 500 to ride mine and see what they think. I think it's pretty close but this is my first bike so I don't know much better. Brett where are you? Is there a place we all could maybe meet up?
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

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Offline brett_bike

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2015, 09:13:25 PM »
I'm in Arvada and my riding is usually around the metro.  I've wanted to ride out 285 and over Hoosier pass to Breck to see how altitude affects my settings, but with the two little ones I haven't had much time to myself to get a good ride in.

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2015, 09:22:12 PM »
With Dan in Evergreen I wonder if we could meet up for a ride and lunch in Bailey area??
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2015, 09:40:30 PM »
I'm right in the middle between you two, I'd say Sedalia might be a good mid point between Woodland park and Arvada. Either way I'm game for meeting up regardless of distance.

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2015, 09:49:21 PM »
I went on another ride with my buddy and his v-star, in total I did roughly 210 miles today problem free on the 500. I met my buddy in Castlerock where upon we took back roads all the way down to the springs and took a cruise through the garden of the gods.

I also think Ive fine tuned my mixture to an acceptable level. When I got home from my ride I drilled a extra holes in the baffles of my Jardine 4into2's, the exhaust note is slightly louder but after a quick test ride around town all my plugs turned a nice dark brown. I think Im now just slightly on the rich side at high elevation and will have the correct mixture or be slightly on the lean side at lower elevations. I also ordered a set of dyna 5ohm coils to add to the bike to improve my spark and performance.

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2015, 09:59:12 PM »
That's a heck of a ride Dan! Did you guys come south through Larkspur? Today I heard that the bridge at Trumbull is now under water so that road is shut down. Glad you're seeing improvements with your bike.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Now with before pictures)
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2015, 10:16:23 PM »
We took 83 all the way down to the springs and 105 back north but I didn't see any flooding along the route. I was thinking you brett_bike and I could meet up with the 500's in Sedalia next weekend to compare notes and see how each others bikes run.
If you're interested I saw a 550 engine for sale on Craigslist up in Aspen incase you're overly vexed by your low compression numbers.

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2015, 06:38:00 PM »
After the 200 mile ride the other day my back was killing me from wearing a backpack loaded down full of riding gear, so today I got creative and fit the bike with some saddle bags. The saddle bags are just canvas pack bags that we used to use on our pack horse but I found they fit the bike really well. I made up some brackets that bolt to the grab bar to keep the bags off of the exhaust and to lash the bags to. Over all Im pretty pleased and these will work until I decide to spring for some actual leather saddle bags.

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2015, 07:20:25 PM »
The "mixture issue": for many years, i have 'tuned' my 750 to the altitude where I was with the octane in the tank. It works very well. As you go higher, you want LESS octane, as it burns faster than higher octanes. In the oversquare 500/550/400F/650F engine, this is the best way to match up without changing the jets. In the longer-stroke 750 and 350F, it is slightly less sensitive, but if I have premium in the tank and climb, for instance, Mt. Evans (14,260 ft), I may lose the #2 and #3 plugs if I don't keep the revs on tap more than normal. The center cylinders run slightly hotter than the outers, so they don't appreciate the richer mix.

The plug caps: yours should be 7500 ohms, if OEM. They should not be more than 8300 ohms, and on one coil not more than 500 ohms different between them, or one side will get weaker spark. Higher ohms makes for longer duration (and cleaner plugs), so a quick test of what you have might be to get some of the DR7EA or XR22ES-U plugs in addition to the plug caps you have now: these add 2000 ohms to the circuit(s) and stretch the spark dwell a bit. BUT...if your caps are weak, with the contacts burning inside where they contact the resistor, the resistor plugs may make the spark jump to the block instead. With new 5000 ohm caps, this won't happen.

HP loss of these carb'd engines is about -1% of total output per 1000 feet altitude, all else being equal. So, by 8000 feet, the 500 is typically running about 32-ish HP at 7000 RPM. Higher-compression pistons (if they are NOT forged pistons) will reduce this effect by about 50%, as the efficiency stays higher. This is why the "Gentleman's Express" version of these bikes (590cc, made with 750 pistons) has been popular for many years. Way back when, Action Fours used to make some 1mm oversize 10.5:1 pistons for these bikes, and if the owner stayed with the stock cam this made for a mighty torquey 500, indeed! Then, the rear sprockets would lose a few teeth to make them smoother 80 MPH tourers, too. But, those who decided they wanted a "big cam" to go with the pistons discovered the efficiency was very low until 7000 RPM, so the bikes became a nuisance to ride. (Something to ponder...).

The 4-1 pipe will cause a very small "suction draw" in a minor RPM range where the only power "boost" will be felt. for the rest of the RPM range, it will not have any effect, simply because the collector pipe is WAY too short to extend the header-suction moment. In order to actually work, this pipe would have to be about 8" longer than the rear wheel...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2015, 08:01:28 PM »
Love the way those saddle bags look Dan. Bikes looking great.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2015, 08:34:03 PM »
The "mixture issue": for many years, i have 'tuned' my 750 to the altitude where I was with the octane in the tank. It works very well. As you go higher, you want LESS octane, as it burns faster than higher octanes. In the oversquare 500/550/400F/650F engine, this is the best way to match up without changing the jets. In the longer-stroke 750 and 350F, it is slightly less sensitive, but if I have premium in the tank and climb, for instance, Mt. Evans (14,260 ft), I may lose the #2 and #3 plugs if I don't keep the revs on tap more than normal. The center cylinders run slightly hotter than the outers, so they don't appreciate the richer mix.

The plug caps: yours should be 7500 ohms, if OEM. They should not be more than 8300 ohms, and on one coil not more than 500 ohms different between them, or one side will get weaker spark. Higher ohms makes for longer duration (and cleaner plugs), so a quick test of what you have might be to get some of the DR7EA or XR22ES-U plugs in addition to the plug caps you have now: these add 2000 ohms to the circuit(s) and stretch the spark dwell a bit. BUT...if your caps are weak, with the contacts burning inside where they contact the resistor, the resistor plugs may make the spark jump to the block instead. With new 5000 ohm caps, this won't happen.
    The mixture issue is pretty much a thing of the past now, Ive got it so that the plugs are turning brown at altitude and at lower elevations, it was allot of guess and check work but everything seems to be copacetic carb wise.
   
    The spark plug boots Im running now are the stock Honda ones, and when I first started on the rebuild I checked them to make sure they all had the same # of ohms I just can't recall what that #  was. Ill be installing dyna 5ohm coils pretty soon as I hear they recharge faster between sparks than the stock Honda coils and I was just checking to see what spark plug boots work best with those coils.
 
    Im in no hurry to install a 4into1 at this point in time as they are a pretty significant chunk of change and the engine has been breathing allot easier since I drilled more holes in to the baffles of my jardine 4into2's.

    If you need I can swing by sometime with a bucket and help you bail out your garage, we've been fortunate these last couple of days with high temps and low humidity which should help everything dry out a bit.

[/quote]
Love the way those saddle bags look Dan. Bikes looking great.
Thanks Chris, I was just cleaning up the old barn and I saw them laying under a tarp on a saddle and that's when I had the ah ha moment. So what do you think of meeting up for a ride and some Sohc talk sometime next weekend?

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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #121 on: June 29, 2015, 08:00:20 PM »
It took a while but I mustered up the energy to rebuild the forks this weekend, it was allot easier than I thought it would be, the hardest part of the process was polishing the fork lowers. I would have taken more pictures of the process but I was on a roll and everything was going so smoothly.

Forks off, (I need to replace the yellowed turn signal lens)

Before

After

Polished fork lowers


After that my new 5ohm dyna coils showed up so I soldered up the wires threw together the plug wires and viola. I have to say the coils were pricey but worth every penny, the engine seems to be much more responsive, pulls hills better, and seem smoother all the way around. I had the engine extremely well tuned before the new coils and after installing the dynas it is now running even better. Currently Im running the stock Honda resistor plug boots and it's running great, Im wondering if the stock plug boots have to much resistance and will harm the dyna coils, or if replacing the Honda plug boots with the lower ohm'ed NGK boots will improve the performance of the ignition system.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #122 on: June 29, 2015, 10:23:09 PM »
Higher resistance in the plug caps is actually desirable. The Honda caps were 7500 ohms new (considered burned out at 8500 ohms), but modern days have left us with only 5000 ohm caps instead. These will eventually burn the coils out FASTER, as they draw higher currents during the spark (but, we're talkin' YEARS, here...). I have had good luck with the "R" series sparkplugs in this regard, using plugs like XR24ES-U (CB750) or XR22ES-U (CB500/550) with getting a longer-duration spark. This causes a longer push down the bore, and enhances the midrange torque in the process.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #123 on: July 01, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »
Higher resistance in the plug caps is actually desirable. The Honda caps were 7500 ohms new (considered burned out at 8500 ohms), but modern days have left us with only 5000 ohm caps instead. These will eventually burn the coils out FASTER, as they draw higher currents during the spark (but, we're talkin' YEARS, here...). I have had good luck with the "R" series sparkplugs in this regard, using plugs like XR24ES-U (CB750) or XR22ES-U (CB500/550) with getting a longer-duration spark. This causes a longer push down the bore, and enhances the midrange torque in the process.

  I couldn't find anything on the Denso XR22ES-U on the internet, I don't believe ND makes them anymore. I went through ND's spark plug sizing chart http://densoautoparts.com/spark-plug-part-numbering and what I found is that the X22ES-U is just about the same. According to the chart X is the thread pitch and socket size which is 12x18, 22 is the heat range ES stands for a 19mm reach with a stainless steal gasket and -U is for the U groove in the spark plug diode. I think these may work, but the denso plugs themselves are still hard to track down.

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #124 on: July 21, 2015, 11:49:21 AM »
Quick question on an oil seal. Im on a crusade to stop any and all oil leaks coming from my engine and Im in the process of replacing all the oil seals under the left clutch actuator cover, Im wondering if the oil seal behind the drive sprocket is replaceable without splitting the engine case. Ive so far replaced the pushrod seal and the shift shaft seal but Im hesitant to replace the drive sprocket seal because it is quite large and kind of looks like the oil seal behind the points plate which is a seal that can only be replaced when the engine is split. If it can only be replaced by splitting the engine I wont worry about it as I currently don't suspect it of leaking, on the other hand since I have everything off and have the new seal on hand I would like to replace it for piece of mind.
The seal in question