Author Topic: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver ( 5/20/17 update )  (Read 33104 times)

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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #150 on: September 17, 2015, 04:07:13 PM »
I don't have much in spares, but I do have a spare tach drive housing. I won't be able to drop it off with you until the 27nth because Im up in northern Colorado for school and the drive housing is in my shop at my paren't place down south. If time is of the essence you could go to Steele's cycles, I bought the spare housing there for 10 bucks with the drive gear. Last time I was at Steele's two more 550 engines had been added to their pick-n-pull yard.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #151 on: September 17, 2015, 04:40:06 PM »
I don't have much in spares, but I do have a spare tach drive housing. I won't be able to drop it off with you until the 27nth because Im up in northern Colorado for school and the drive housing is in my shop at my paren't place down south. If time is of the essence you could go to Steele's cycles, I bought the spare housing there for 10 bucks with the drive gear. Last time I was at Steele's two more 550 engines had been added to their pick-n-pull yard.

Thanks, Dan! I'm not in a big rush for this: I have to find some 550 cylinders before I can move forward on this rebuild. It's a full-blown Gentleman's Express build on a CB500-4 like yours. The engine has less than 6k miles on it, but was parked then for 30 years and rusted itself tight.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #152 on: September 17, 2015, 06:03:54 PM »
Sorry I can't help with the cylinders, but Ill drop the tach drive gear housing off with you sat the 26th or Sun the 27th.

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Oil burning issue)
« Reply #153 on: September 17, 2015, 06:39:21 PM »
   






One of my favorite rides on a mountain bike was from Deckers to Buffalo Creek on this road and back. You could also jump on the Colorado Trail in that area as well. I wish they would pave the whole thing so I could take my motorcycle on it but I see that didn't stop you.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver (Oil burning issue)
« Reply #154 on: September 17, 2015, 07:20:51 PM »
One of my favorite rides on a mountain bike was from Deckers to Buffalo Creek on this road and back. You could also jump on the Colorado Trail in that area as well. I wish they would pave the whole thing so I could take my motorcycle on it but I see that didn't stop you.

It's one of my favorite rides too, and when Im not away at school it's only about a 15 mile ride from my house. The dirt parts aren't terrible by the platte, the bad part is actually all the paved corners where gravel has gotten spread on the road from anglers tearing out of the dirt parking lots. The two dirt roads that go from the Platte to Sedalia are a little more challenging on the CB's but it seems like when ever I ride those dirt roads theres always a guy on a giant harley hauling a$$ up them kicking up a huge plumes of dust behind him.

Offline riverfever

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #155 on: September 17, 2015, 07:58:24 PM »
Oh that really nasty dirt climb used to be one of my favorite hills to do repeats on. Sometimes I would take random trails in that area. I know of three grow camps back in there that got busted and I walked right into one of them. Took Jefferson County PD back to it later. They choppered out tons of weed.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols

Offline MJL

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #156 on: September 17, 2015, 08:39:33 PM »
I was hoping to hear more about a 590 build. I'll be watching this thread anyway.
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #157 on: September 17, 2015, 09:20:07 PM »
I was hoping to hear more about a 590 build. I'll be watching this thread anyway.
I'm starting one for one of our other members: keep an eye out for it in the Build section.
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2015, 07:39:34 PM »
    So I finally gave up searching for stock 7.5k ohm resistor spark plug caps and installed the NGK 5k ohm resistor caps on the bike, I was worried the shorter spark duration might negatively affect the engine but after a few hundred miles I haven't seen any signs to justify my worries. I did notice that the engine's idle was slightly smoother now that all 4 caps have the same resistance.
    Im still on a quest to do the ton, but it seems no matter how well I have the bike tuned, 95mph is about all I can get out of it regardless of altitude. It's like there is some sort of invisible barrier right at 95mph. :-\  The bike pulls well all the way up to 85mph then it slowly builds momentum and stops at 95. I think there may be 3 possible reasons I cant hit 100 A. The speedometer may not be accurate at higher speeds after 42 years of use B. the persistent oil burning may be making a few horses lame and C. the cam chain being a bit stretched may be costing me a few extra ponies. It could be a combination of the 3, but as of right now I can only check one, so tomorrow Im going to do a high speed run with my GPS strapped to my leg and see how accurate the speedo is.
    In the meantime Ive decided Im going to get a picture of the CB500 at every airport Ive flown into during my flight training, Ive been to a few already on the bike but I only just decided to start documenting each visit. A few are going to be pretty long trips, so Im going to need to hustle to get them all in before the snow starts falling. I rode the bike out to Fort Morgan airport (KFMM) this weekend, which is a small airport consisting of a single paved runway and is mostly used by crop dusters. Its roughly 60 miles from my apartment out to Fort Morgan and the bike did great running at 80mph the whole way out there and back.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2015, 09:59:21 PM »
    So I finally gave up searching for stock 7.5k ohm resistor spark plug caps and installed the NGK 5k ohm resistor caps on the bike, I was worried the shorter spark duration might negatively affect the engine but after a few hundred miles I haven't seen any signs to justify my worries. I did notice that the engine's idle was slightly smoother now that all 4 caps have the same resistance.
    Im still on a quest to do the ton, but it seems no matter how well I have the bike tuned, 95mph is about all I can get out of it regardless of altitude. It's like there is some sort of invisible barrier right at 95mph. :-\  The bike pulls well all the way up to 85mph then it slowly builds momentum and stops at 95. I think there may be 3 possible reasons I cant hit 100 A. The speedometer may not be accurate at higher speeds after 42 years of use B. the persistent oil burning may be making a few horses lame and C. the cam chain being a bit stretched may be costing me a few extra ponies. It could be a combination of the 3, but as of right now I can only check one, so tomorrow Im going to do a high speed run with my GPS strapped to my leg and see how accurate the speedo is.
    In the meantime Ive decided Im going to get a picture of the CB500 at every airport Ive flown into during my flight training, Ive been to a few already on the bike but I only just decided to start documenting each visit. A few are going to be pretty long trips, so Im going to need to hustle to get them all in before the snow starts falling. I rode the bike out to Fort Morgan airport (KFMM) this weekend, which is a small airport consisting of a single paved runway and is mostly used by crop dusters. Its roughly 60 miles from my apartment out to Fort Morgan and the bike did great running at 80mph the whole way out there and back.

Cool plan, and good start!
The drive chains get a little more efficient once they match themselves to the sprockets in use. This takes about 500 miles for any new chain on any sprockets, and a little more if the sprockets are brand new. The slack on the 500 should be around 3/4" with the bike on the ground (sidestand) because it tightens about 1/4" as the swingarm passes thru horizontal on the way to compressed shocks, where it gets looser again.

When you come by, we can talk about the Gentleman's Express thing: it takes 550 cylinders to reach the 61mm bore, so the cases also have to be bored out a bit: I have the parts of this engine arrayed on the floor, minus the cylinders, at the house. Next I have to pick out the pistons I want to use. Boy, wait 'till you see the carbs this guy just sent! I've never seen such beautiful 500/550 carbs before.

The top speed: you're into the realm of 'the little things' now that make the difference. Like:
Where are the vent hoses for the carbs located?
How do the fuel lines route, and what is the float bowl depth of the carbs?
What is the full advance (ignition) timing setting?
Which sparkplugs are you using, and what color are they during a long hard run?
Did you switch the air filter to a K&N pod-on-a-plate-in-the-airbox?
What tire pressures are you running?

These all matter above 7000 RPM and in top gear.  ;)

Once the engine is running to where it will redline, the fine tuning can begin. This then becomes a matter of broadening the powerband via external adjustments to the engine, like mixtures, timing, spark, air feed, and finally, exhaust. The latter has little to do with it, unless you can find a muffler that is longer than the rear fender, because otherwise the pipe is so short it has to time for the exhaust to complete expansion pulses well enough to be used as an extraction device. For examples, you can search for [old] photos of the CB500 racing, and pictures like my all-time favorite Mike Hailwood on the Honda Six, where you can get an idea of just how long the pipes have to be to work as suction systems (or, look under a car like a Shelby Mustang). On a CB750, this is just about even with the back of the rear tire, so on the 500 it is past the rear fender. As the pipes get shorter, the RPM they begin to work at gets higher: for comparison, the pipes you have now would have no effect until a little over 10,500 RPM, where they would just start to work. So, don't pin hopes on the pipes until you win the lottery? ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2015, 11:24:45 AM »
Cool plan, and good start!
The drive chains get a little more efficient once they match themselves to the sprockets in use. This takes about 500 miles for any new chain on any sprockets, and a little more if the sprockets are brand new. The slack on the 500 should be around 3/4" with the bike on the ground (sidestand) because it tightens about 1/4" as the swingarm passes thru horizontal on the way to compressed shocks, where it gets looser again.

When you come by, we can talk about the Gentleman's Express thing: it takes 550 cylinders to reach the 61mm bore, so the cases also have to be bored out a bit: I have the parts of this engine arrayed on the floor, minus the cylinders, at the house. Next I have to pick out the pistons I want to use. Boy, wait 'till you see the carbs this guy just sent! I've never seen such beautiful 500/550 carbs before.

The top speed: you're into the realm of 'the little things' now that make the difference. Like:
Where are the vent hoses for the carbs located?
How do the fuel lines route, and what is the float bowl depth of the carbs?
What is the full advance (ignition) timing setting?
Which sparkplugs are you using, and what color are they during a long hard run?
Did you switch the air filter to a K&N pod-on-a-plate-in-the-airbox?
What tire pressures are you running?

These all matter above 7000 RPM and in top gear.  ;)

Once the engine is running to where it will redline, the fine tuning can begin. This then becomes a matter of broadening the powerband via external adjustments to the engine, like mixtures, timing, spark, air feed, and finally, exhaust. The latter has little to do with it, unless you can find a muffler that is longer than the rear fender, because otherwise the pipe is so short it has to time for the exhaust to complete expansion pulses well enough to be used as an extraction device. For examples, you can search for [old] photos of the CB500 racing, and pictures like my all-time favorite Mike Hailwood on the Honda Six, where you can get an idea of just how long the pipes have to be to work as suction systems (or, look under a car like a Shelby Mustang). On a CB750, this is just about even with the back of the rear tire, so on the 500 it is past the rear fender. As the pipes get shorter, the RPM they begin to work at gets higher: for comparison, the pipes you have now would have no effect until a little over 10,500 RPM, where they would just start to work. So, don't pin hopes on the pipes until you win the lottery? ;)

Im about to go do the speed run, so wish me luck and no speeding tickets  :o
Quote
Where are the vent hoses for the carbs located?
I have them rooted just aft of the engine case, they extend down about an inch past the bottom of the engine
Quote
How do the fuel lines route, and what is the float bowl depth of the carbs?
I have the Honda 5.5mm fuel lines going direct from the petcock to the fuel T's of the carbs, and I posted a pic of the fuel depth at the end of page 6 and I have all 4 carbs set with the same fuel depth
Quote
What is the full advance (ignition) timing setting?
I have the ignition timing set a few degrees advanced of the timing mark at idle and I filed down the stop tabs of the mechanical advance to get a few more degrees full advance.
Quote
Which sparkplugs are you using, and what color are they during a long hard run?
This one is a little trickier but I have the NGK D7EA plugs and normally they are a tan to slightly darker tan in color.
Quote
Did you switch the air filter to a K&N pod-on-a-plate-in-the-airbox?
Im using a standard paper filter
Quote
What tire pressures are you running?
I run 28psi in the front tire and 32 psi in the rear with Dunlop K70 tires.

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2015, 12:33:05 PM »
Ok speed run complete! The good news is the speedometer on the bike is accurate and in-sync with the numbers given by my GPS, the bad news is I still have yet to do the ton, and my top speed remains 95mph. I inflated my tires to 32psi front and 36psi rear in hopes of wringing out a few more mph's. For scientific purposes it was 81 degrees fahrenheit, barometric pressure was 30.08 inhg and the altitude of the area I did the run at is 4,830ft msl which gives me a density altitude of roughly 5800ft so the conditions weren't ideal for the run but pretty average as far as summertime weather in colorado goes.

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2015, 03:31:34 PM »
From a curiosity perspective purely, how stable did your bike handle? I ask because the K70s don't have a stellar reputation is all.

Remind me, what sprockets please?

As far as stability goes, I haven't had any issues with the k70's the front does develop a very slight woble at higher speeds that is only noticeable if you take a hand off the bars or if you light to no pressure is put on the bars. I think the wobble can be contributed to the fact I haven't trued or balanced the front wheel, it's almost none existent on asphalt and more pronounced on grooved concrete. For sprockets I'm 95% sure I'm running 17/34 but I haven't counted the teeth on the rear.

Offline scottly

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #163 on: September 23, 2015, 05:43:19 PM »
For scientific purposes it was 81 degrees fahrenheit, barometric pressure was 30.08 inhg and the altitude of the area I did the run at is 4,830ft
I think your barometer is broken. ;) That's more than sea level? I'm at about 4500 ft, and mine typically reads in the mid 25 in-hg range.
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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2015, 06:45:26 PM »
I think your barometer is broken. ;) That's more than sea level? I'm at about 4500 ft, and mine typically reads in the mid 25 in-hg range.
Good eye Scottly, in this instance we are using two different types of barometers. Yours is a weather forecasting unit while mine is an analog aviation model. The aviation barometer is used to calculate engine and lift performance and doesn't account for pressure loss due to altitude above sea level, this is done in later calculations. I could explain further in more depth if you're interested, but that's the general principal.

Offline scottly

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #165 on: September 23, 2015, 06:53:30 PM »
My barometer is on a dynamometer, and is for calculating correction factors for standard horsepower ratings, such as SAE or DIN. 
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2015, 06:59:02 PM »
Does your barometer use a dial gauge or is it a glass tube filled with a viscous liquid?

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2015, 07:10:19 PM »
It's digital; I have no idea how it works, now that you mention it. ??? The point is that you will make less horsepower at higher elevations and higher temps than you would at sea level and lower temps. I typically see corrections of 17 to 20 %..
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #168 on: September 23, 2015, 07:36:42 PM »
Ahh ok I see what you're saying. I'm used to using aviation barometers which are used to get the same result as yours but in a different method. The calculation I use is standard pressure minus current pressure times 1000 plus elevation. So for my previous #'s it was 29.92-30.08= -.16x1000= -160+4800=4640 ft msl for the pressure altitude  in using a barometer like yours it would look like this  29.92-25.28= 4.64x1000= 4640ft msl. Same answer just aviation uses an extra step for some reason.

Offline scottly

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #169 on: September 23, 2015, 07:45:12 PM »
Are you aware that turbo-chargers were first developed to provide sea-level performance to piston engine aircraft at altitude?
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Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #170 on: September 23, 2015, 08:02:07 PM »
I did not know that  :o many old WWII fighters had gigantic turbo's to make them more effective, but it greatly cut down on the lifespan of an engine to about 500 hours. Many naturally aspirated piston aircraft engines have to be rebuilt every 1500 hours while adding a turbo reduces that number further depending on the engine.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #171 on: September 23, 2015, 09:14:16 PM »
Dan: someone from here is offering me a 550 top end (complete) for shipping from CA. If you're thinking of the Gentlemen's Express, would you like to pick up the tab on this one? just a thought...

Another random thought: maybe pull the vent hoses up a bit (or trim them a little?) so they are fully behind the engine. (Not the drain hoses, just the 2 vents). The air will be quieter there, and higher pressure.

Also, I'll see if I can scare up a set of X22ES-U plugs for you when you come by. And some X24 as well. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2015, 10:05:09 PM »
Dan: someone from here is offering me a 550 top end (complete) for shipping from CA. If you're thinking of the Gentlemen's Express, would you like to pick up the tab on this one? just a thought...

Another random thought: maybe pull the vent hoses up a bit (or trim them a little?) so they are fully behind the engine. (Not the drain hoses, just the 2 vents). The air will be quieter there, and higher pressure.

Also, I'll see if I can scare up a set of X22ES-U plugs for you when you come by. And some X24 as well. ;)
I appreciate the offer on the 550 top end but right now I am just curious in the makings of a gentleman's express, I am waiting until I get a look at the valve guides when I replace their seals before I make any big engine decisions. As to the vent hoses I have those rooted over the airbox and underneath the filter box. I really appreciate the offer on the spark plugs, I would settle just for information on your source for the Denso plugs. I came close at a Toyota dealership because they carry Densos but not the right plugs. The Nippon Denso plugs must be one of Japan's closest kept secrets.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #173 on: September 24, 2015, 04:46:21 PM »
Dan: someone from here is offering me a 550 top end (complete) for shipping from CA. If you're thinking of the Gentlemen's Express, would you like to pick up the tab on this one? just a thought...

Another random thought: maybe pull the vent hoses up a bit (or trim them a little?) so they are fully behind the engine. (Not the drain hoses, just the 2 vents). The air will be quieter there, and higher pressure.

Also, I'll see if I can scare up a set of X22ES-U plugs for you when you come by. And some X24 as well. ;)
I appreciate the offer on the 550 top end but right now I am just curious in the makings of a gentleman's express, I am waiting until I get a look at the valve guides when I replace their seals before I make any big engine decisions. As to the vent hoses I have those rooted over the airbox and underneath the filter box. I really appreciate the offer on the spark plugs, I would settle just for information on your source for the Denso plugs. I came close at a Toyota dealership because they carry Densos but not the right plugs. The Nippon Denso plugs must be one of Japan's closest kept secrets.

At a car dealer, they will carry heat ranges like ...16ES... or ...18ES..., but nothing like our bikes need, at ...22ES... or ...24ES.. heatrange. Ours would foul in a car engine in mere minutes! Nippon Denso owns NGK, and for years we could not get the ND plugs (until about 1973). Then the marketing arrangement between NGK America and ND went a little sour, and ND started marketing their plugs, but added the "U" ground electrode as a marketing ploy. The real difference between them is: the ND plugs have thinner ceramic tips than the D8E or D7E plugs, which allows slightly better gas flow nearby and better ignition, by a little. But, it was (and is) a little bit that can be felt.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Desert Dan

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Re: High altitude 73 CB500 daily driver
« Reply #174 on: September 29, 2015, 02:23:12 PM »
I just turned 6k on the motor since rebuilding the top end, so far it's been a great journey working on the Honda and taking it on adventures. I swung by three airports over the weekend to continue on my quest to ride the 500 to every airport Ive flown to, luckily I fly helicopters so all the airports are within riding distance of me. A great photographer, I am not  :o
Rocky Mountain Metropolitan (KBJC)

Boulder Municipal (KBDU)

Vance Brand (KLMO)

And one at Metro with a nice looking helicopter in the background.