Author Topic: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.  (Read 3972 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« on: February 18, 2015, 09:54:19 PM »
First, the Tech Soliloquy:
 ;D
The post-1974 engines (F0/F1/K7/K8 and F2-3 series) used pistons with domes on top to increase compression. This change came about because a new hemi-style combustion chamber was introduced (for reasons discussed below) that was larger in volume than in the early engines. On the F0/1 and K7/8 engines with head casting “-392-“ the combustion chamber is one larger size, and on the F2/3 engines the casting “-410-“ type is an even larger chamber, to fit its larger intake valves. Accordingly, the “-410-“ piston domes are taller than the “-392-“ domes, but even with this additional height, the F2/3 engines have LESS compression than the F0/1 and K7/8 engines.

In 2012 the world’s supply of ART/Honda pistons for these engines dried up. In their place, using the earlier flat-topped (“-300-“) piston causes a low-compression situation that removes considerable horsepower and midrange torque, although it still provides a decently-running 750 engine overall. Calculations indicate the engine output drops about 10%-16%, depending on which cam your engine has inside. This isn’t a deal-breaker, as the engine can then run on the crummiest fuels you can find, but the bike does lose some spirit.

Here in the forums, MiGhost (thanks, MiGhost!) brought out the point that the DOHC750 pistons (1979-1982) have similar skirts and piston pin diameters to the SOHC4 type, but the shoulders are too tall to directly fit the stroke. After he kindly sent me a set of those pistons to play with, I got a tool made to let my shop cut back the shoulder so as to fit these engines’ stroke. Then I got some new DOHC rings (ouch!) and wrists pins (double ouch!) and a fellow SOHC4 member here in Colorado brought me his K7 engine as the Guinea pig test. We bored it to fit (this comes out to 4th oversize, if these were SOHC4 pistons, or 759.8cc) as we can still use the stock head gasket, and I checked all the valve-to-piston clearances with the tried-and-true “Clay Test” on top of the pistons. We get about 2mm of clearance, worst case, which should be far more than enough. I cut the shoulders back 1.5mm overall height, which made them flush with the top of the cylinders when the base gasket was installed.

The tall, flat domes on these pistons will not disturb the swirl pattern a lot in these later engines, as the swirl is already far less than in the earlier ones. The swirl will have already been ignited (at 5-35 degrees BTDC) before the crown causes interruption of this flow. In effect, it converts the chamber to a DOHC750 style chamber, but with some swirl (DOHC has none). During overlap cycle, the high flat dome should act just like in the DOHC engines, blocking the transfer of unburned fuel across the piston crown. This was done to reduce tailpipe emissions more than anything else, but this has an added benefit at lower engine speeds of not inducing a burn back up the intake tract, should an early-opening cam be introduced to the engine.

But, if the user wishes, a early-intake cam duration could be added (before even 10 BTC) for improved low-end torque as compared to the post-1974 cams. The post-1974 SOHC4 engines all had cams that opened (intake) at 0 BTC to stop this “back-burn” problem (as early opening valves introduced tailpipe emissions at 2500 RPM). This later opening sapped away the torque in the 3000 RPM range. The result was/is that the post-1974 bikes usually feel listless in city driving below 5000 RPM, if one is used to the earlier bike’s performance. While the higher compression and larger carbs of the later bikes introduced some more top-end power, most riders seldom use that power until 70 MPH or more, so it often goes unnoticed, or at least not used very much.

Next, as I assemble them, will come the picture posts!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 09:55:50 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,805
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 02:57:48 AM »
subscribed
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Restoration Fan

  • My wife will never call me
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,966
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 03:54:59 AM »
Fascinating!  Thank you for posting this.  Also subscribed and looking forward to hearing what comes of this.
Ron

Stella - Logan's Senior Project    78 750K http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141761.0

Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafes    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147787.0.html

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2015, 10:34:49 PM »
The pix of the modified piston is shown below, next to the original K7 piston. The little nick-like marks on the far side of the DOHC piston (right side) are what is left of the casting letters "IN" that showed the intake side of the piston. The shoulders of the new pistons were cut down 1.5mm, give or take 0.1mm.

The wristpins of both pistons are the same diameter, but you will either have to shorten the SOHC wristpins or else buy new DOHC750 pins. I chose the latter, as the old DOHC wristpins had some rust on them. I also bought DOHC rings (stock size) which seem to be plentiful, if pricier than SOHC rings. Look for the ones with a chrome top ring, if you can, for best life.

The cylinders were bored and honed to accept chrome rings, then this reassembly started.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the first build step: installing the pistons after they were modified, to see if they hit the head. I installed the base gasket under the cylinders and the pistons, without rings for now, and then snugged the head in place to 15 ft-lbs with the cam and rockers (intake side is enough). Then the engine was rotated twice to see if the pistons and their tall crowns would hit the head or valves. No contact, a good test.

Next, I took some modeling clay and laid it on the piston crowns in the areas under the valves, about 3mm deep. The head was bolted back down with intake and exhaust valves and rockers in place, and the engine rotated (gently!) to find out what clearance there is between the valves and pistons during overlap, the most likely time for a collision. The depth of the clay under the valves, indicated first by my pocketknife tip, showed the closest points.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 09:44:03 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2015, 10:37:47 PM »
Next I cut thru the clay with a sharp edge and lifted it up to see the thickness. This was measured using calipers, gently...
The clearance is more than 1.5mm. This corresponds to a "normal" engine, although the K7 (this is a K7, head casting -392-) pistons had another 0.5mm smile cut into the stock pistons on top of this clearance. As this engine isn't headed for race tracks, it will be fine. If it were going racing, I might Dremel some smiles under the intake valve(s), about 0.5mm deep. There is plenty of shoulder depth for this addition.

If you're doing the F2/3 heads: bear in mind the valve cutouts in the domed -410- pistons is about 3mm clearance, but with the valves sitting 1mm higher in the head. So if this were a -410- head, no valve impression would have even appeared in this depth of clay unless you first milled the head about .7 to 1.0mm.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:08:46 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2015, 10:47:14 PM »
A side note: most of the camchain tensioner "kits" I've seen in the last 3 years are from EMGO. They typically have a poorly-formed punched hole where the pivot axis is supposed to slip through the arm (on the notched side). The tool appears to have been dull, or perhaps they tried to punch both the hole and notch at once: either way, the hole is not round, but egg-shaped. The narrow spots are shown in the pix here as sites to sand back a little, like with the Dremel sander drum shown, so the pivot is totally free to spin, but not let the arm wobble. In the picture below, the arm is freely hanging down, having pivoted on the pin I am holding. The shaft must hold the arm at 90 degrees (straight up) to help align the cam chain straight, so don't make it loose.

Edit 2019: I believe this became the source of the troubles many of these parts had, causing overloaded rollers that later crumbled. This culminated in a recall of the parts by most of our vendors. If you still have one of these units, be sure to modify it as shown above to make sure it will work OK in your engine. I installed quite a few of these with no troubles, but each one took 30 minutes of 'prep' like this to make them work right.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 10:24:54 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2015, 10:55:35 PM »
Some comments about this "build": the stock-bore DOHC750 piston is the same OD as the 4th oversized SOHC4 OEM pistons. This makes the displacement about 760cc. In the F0/F1/K7/K8 engine, the DOHC dome is slightly higher and narrower, but not far off the original volume of the OEM pistons. The final compression will come in around 9.4:1, so the bike might want premium gas after this change. They used to run on Regular before ethanol came out, with most people using premium anyway. Honda manged this by making the intake valve open late (0 degrees BTC). If you add more cam timing (like I usually do) for more midrange, maybe by slotting the sprocket, using a K0-K5 cam, or maybe a Megacycle 125-00 cam, there will still be sufficient valve edge clearance. If you're concerned about it, add the 0.5mm deep smile in the intake side to avoid the valve edge when running past 8500 RPM. These cams will lower the compression and octane requirements slightly, and will make the engine run cooler overall in the end, while boosting torque around 3500-5000 RPM.

The F2/F3 heads (-410- castings) have a larger combustion chamber than the other post-1975 heads. With these pistons, the compression will meet the original, about 9:1 or slightly higher. I would still mill the F2/3 head for flatness, and maybe push it down 0.5mm to get nearer the stock (advertised) 9.2:1 CR, sometimes shown as 9.0:1 or 9.1:1 in various different places.

The stock head gaskets can usually accomodate up to S6 size (6th oversize, or +1.5mm) overbore on most Hondas of this era. This one is S4, or 1.0mm, and the head gasket seems to have enough clearance to allow more growth in the form of at least the next oversize DOHC piston.

So now, these engines have a future!
:)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:15:51 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,789
  • Northern Virginia
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 05:36:41 AM »
Subscribed.

Of course I had to look up what is piston shoulder  - language barrier gets in my way every so often  ;)

Offline koendd

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 343
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2015, 05:56:27 AM »
hmm,

and I still don't know what a piston shoulder is, all I find through google are purses in many variations  ;D

So If I were to use these on my F2 there's no worry at all in piston/valve contact? exept if you skim around 1mm?

and can these pistons be found new? Or why would you use these pistons over stock used F2/K7 pistons (exept that rings are real hard to come by for the F2 etc.)

thx!
1972 cb750K2 brat
1976 cb360
1984 GPZ900R

Offline iron_worker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,081
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2015, 09:28:19 AM »
I wasn't sure what he meant by shoulder either but by the looks of it he meant the ring around the outside edge of the top face of the piston. Probably had to machine this down so it would not protrude past the top of cylinders and contact the combustion chamber/head (machined pistons to "zero deck" may be a more familiar term to some). I'm not sure but the sides of the dome may have also been touched?

IW

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 06:18:47 PM »
Yep, the 'shoulder' is the ring around the top, on the outside edges. This area is closest to the edges of the combustion chambers and cylinder head face.

The piston crown is squared off for the DOHC valve clearance, so it fills less volume than it looks. If used in the early 750 SOHC4 heads, these high crowns would come close to the valve swirl shrouds, maybe very close, requiring they be cut back either in the head of the pistons. In the more hemi-shaped post-1975 heads, there isn't much (or any) swirl shrouding in the chambers. so there's plenty of space.

These pistons are more available than the post-1975 pistons, as Honda (and everyone else, apparently) quit making them in about 2010. The rings for stock DOHC750 pistons are fairly easily found, if more expensive than the more popular SOHC4 rings. I plan on using mostly 2nd-hand DOHC pistons, cleaned up and modified as above, for rebuilds on these engines, going forward. If new ones can be found, so much the better: NOS is always an option as the DOHC bikes are not as popular and the parts demand lower. I think (not sure yet) these particular rings also fit some other make/model/year Japanese bike pistons, too, as the 62mm bore is found in several other bikes and these designs are all very similar.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 10:19:08 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline koendd

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 343
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 02:14:50 PM »
allright!

thx for the hard work and sharing your findings with us!
1972 cb750K2 brat
1976 cb360
1984 GPZ900R

Offline tourmax

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 209
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2022, 04:37:04 PM »
old thread, but posting so I can find it again in the future. Still haven't figured out how to add a "watched thread" option on this forum...
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2022, 06:23:36 PM »
We have an ally now with the post-1975 750 pistons, in CruisinImage. He is making whole piston sets now for the F0/1 and K7/8 bikes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline tourmax

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 209
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2022, 11:20:08 AM »
We have an ally now with the post-1975 750 pistons, in CruisinImage. He is making whole piston sets now for the F0/1 and K7/8 bikes.

Thanks for the info, but I'm looking at 750 pistons for a 650 block and this is all good info towards getting them to work properly, which is why I wanted a marker so I can find it again in the future. On the plus side is I can machine my own pistons crowns here at home (if needed).
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,791
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2022, 06:56:29 PM »
We have an ally now with the post-1975 750 pistons, in CruisinImage. He is making whole piston sets now for the F0/1 and K7/8 bikes.

Thanks for the info, but I'm looking at 750 pistons for a 650 block and this is all good info towards getting them to work properly, which is why I wanted a marker so I can find it again in the future. On the plus side is I can machine my own pistons crowns here at home (if needed).

Watch the length of the piston skirt: it might hit the crankshaft's weights. This is/was the biggest 'bug' in the old 'Gentleman's Express' rebuild for the 'then new] CB500, which originally used CB750 stock-size pistons in the engine. One item not mentioned in the famous writeup of the build was the way the pistons had to be modified so as to not hit the crankweights: they cut all the way up thru the lower piston reinforcement ridge (on the inside of the piston) to clear the crank, and the result was pistons that do not stay in-dimension (they spread into a wider oval) at higher engine speeds. The end effect was: it always burned oil, and not small amounts of it. When I tried the 'old recipe' on a CB550 for one of our members some years ago, I ran into the same issue. In the end I had to use S12 pistons (aka "big bore" kits) instead of the hoped-for vintage method. The bike ran great, though, eclipsing 100 MPH before it was broken in!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline tourmax

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 209
Re: Using 750 DOHC pistons in the post-1974 SOHC4 CB750 engines.
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2022, 06:00:48 AM »
We have an ally now with the post-1975 750 pistons, in CruisinImage. He is making whole piston sets now for the F0/1 and K7/8 bikes.

Thanks for the info, but I'm looking at 750 pistons for a 650 block and this is all good info towards getting them to work properly, which is why I wanted a marker so I can find it again in the future. On the plus side is I can machine my own pistons crowns here at home (if needed).

Watch the length of the piston skirt: it might hit the crankshaft's weights. This is/was the biggest 'bug' in the old 'Gentleman's Express' rebuild for the 'then new] CB500, which originally used CB750 stock-size pistons in the engine. One item not mentioned in the famous writeup of the build was the way the pistons had to be modified so as to not hit the crankweights: they cut all the way up thru the lower piston reinforcement ridge (on the inside of the piston) to clear the crank, and the result was pistons that do not stay in-dimension (they spread into a wider oval) at higher engine speeds. The end effect was: it always burned oil, and not small amounts of it. When I tried the 'old recipe' on a CB550 for one of our members some years ago, I ran into the same issue. In the end I had to use S12 pistons (aka "big bore" kits) instead of the hoped-for vintage method. The bike ran great, though, eclipsing 100 MPH before it was broken in!

Thanks, I'll watch for that.
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!