Author Topic: 550f clutch basket/stack hight (Read 8764 times)

bwaller · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2015, 04:26:34 AM »

There is only the one original thrust washer behind the basket?

flatlander · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2015, 04:50:05 AM »

behind the basket is the original thrust washer (no. 13 on the diagramme in my previous post).
between hub and basket is an additional 1mm thrust washer.

actually my previous idea of replacing the no. 13 washer with a thinner one to bring the whole thing back, would not work: the basket would then hit the bolts etc. that are behind it.

it seems like the whole assembly is now a bit too tall, and extends too far into the clutch cover.
here's a thought: are the plates that i'm using the right ones, not too thick? i have now OEM ones from CMSNL that are listed as stock for the 550f1:
friction plates - part no. 22201286010
steel plates - part no. 22321374000
plate "B" - part no. 22202390000

flatlander · « **Reply #27 on:** July 31, 2015, 04:04:19 PM »

so it's back to stock now. seeing that it's summer and riding season i didn't want to spend more time on this.

i did check for contact by marking the parts on the outer plate and basket that got polished in the above pic, with black sharpie. then turned the adjuster screw all the way in and gave it a few turns with the kickstart. all the black marks were still there afterwards so with the standard 7 friction/6 steel plates and the stock hub there's no problem.

i may pick up the 8-plate mod again during winter and will then post again on this thread.

minimo · « **Reply #28 on:** September 25, 2015, 06:10:05 PM »

The double steel disc, Plate B (Clymer) should be installed "at the fourth position as counted from the clutch center" which would be the outside (cover) side.

Did you get a chance to measure the thickness of the aftermarket friction (fiber) discs and the clutch (steel) plates? Which ones did you get? Barnett, EBC, or Vesrah? A mix of different brands? The thickness may run differently across the brands but from my experience, a new EBC friction (fiber) disc thickness measures 2.7mm. Honda stock friction discs have a wear limit of 3.0mm, and that's at minimum. So, at 2.7mm on my EBCs, that's already too thin to work with my stock Honda steel plates.
So if 3.0mm is the limit and if you also used the EBC discs like me, multiply seven (because there are 7 of these) times the difference of what it should at least be with what you have (3.0mm - 2.7mm = 0.3mm) and you get 2.1mm in thickness to compensate for in the basket which makes the whole assembly sit that much farther away from the lifter; a measurement I'm hoping will be compensated for thicker steel plates which I read is offered in the aftermarket plates, specifically Barnett plates that supposedly measure 0.2mm thicker than OEM.

Measure the thickness of your OEM Honda friction discs and they are probably at least if not more than 3.0mm

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flatlander · « **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2015, 03:40:32 AM »

ver good point re. different thickness of plates, i did not consider that!
i'll keep that in mind when i get back to this in winter. right now i'm too busy riding the bike whenever possible.

minimo · « **Reply #30 on:** September 26, 2015, 11:33:22 PM »

I'm also curious, in the mod you did with the 1.0mm washer, placing it on top of the collar (preceding the pressure plate/clutch assembly), did you have an 8th metal disc in place?
If you did, that would likely explain why you were getting the contact on the lever/underside of the clutch cover -- that would make the whole assembly too thick.

flatlander · « **Reply #31 on:** September 26, 2015, 11:44:43 PM »

i added one additional pair of friction disk and steel plate.
so in the end i had 8 friction plates and 7 metal discs. 6 metal discs are stock.

the additional pair of of friction/steel is meant to take up the place of the spring-loaded damper plate, but apparently is a bit thicker which is why the 1mm extra space is needed. at least that's whay i understood from people who did the mod before.

minimo · « **Reply #32 on:** September 27, 2015, 12:02:23 AM »

Interesting. For the year that followed your bike, I suppose Honda saw that and decided to make the riveted double metal plate, maybe to address some of those height issues.
But you added an additional friction (fiber) plate along with a 1mm "thrust washer"?? That would make it an additional 3.7mm taller.

Regardless, you mentioned that you eventually replaced all the discs/plates with stock Honda ones and it worked. Excellent! And I presume that you use the factory recommend number of discs/plates; 7 friction discs and 6 metal plates?

flatlander · « **Reply #33 on:** September 27, 2015, 12:10:05 AM »

yes at the moment i have the stock amount of discs/plates. and so far no problems at all.
now since they're worn in in should try some really hard accelarations at high rpms to see how they hold up with the stronger engine.

and apart from adding the thrust washer i also machined 1mm off the top of the hub so the washer adds 1mm space within the basket, and the 1mm off makes sure the assembly still fits under the circlip.
that part did worke fine, i could mount the whole assembly under the circlip. but then the problem with not enough space to the lever appeared.

minimo · « **Reply #34 on:** September 27, 2015, 12:34:13 AM »

Got it. So you make up for one part and lose in another.
I'm waiting for a set of Barnett metal plates to arrive. They are meant to go along with my set of aftermarket EBC friction discs, which by the way is a non-working combo at the moment with stock Honda steel plates. Supposedly, these Barnett plates are thicker than stock so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's just enough to allow for proper clutch adjustment.
Keep you posted.

flatlander · « **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2015, 01:38:22 AM »

yes, right.
i want to tear into this again during the dark season to figure out what's causing the issues. at the moment it's still a bit of a mystery to me but i didn't take the time to investigate, just wanted it to work again so that i could enjoy the bike before winter. luckily i have an un-modified clutch hub so i can easily switch between the two setups.

flatlander · « **Reply #36 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:33:29 PM »

ok, i may have figured it out but want to bounce this off you guys.

hight of the OEM 550 stuff, 6 friction plates and 6 steel discs that i use now in the stock basket: 28.2mm
that's not counting the 7th friction plate (plate B) that sits on top of the basket.

the stock steel discs used in the 550 are about 2mm thick.
the ones in the 500 are 1mm.

so when i do some mixing and matching:
- 7x friction plate, OEM 550
- 1x steel disc, OEM 550
- 6x steel disc, OEM 500

... and stacking this up, i get i hight of 28.2mm!
same as the stock 550 stack with 6 plates and discs each.

when i throw this in the basket and put the plate B on top (then it's 8 friction plates total), it should work without any further modification - or am i missing something?

minimo · « **Reply #37 on:** March 13, 2016, 12:57:46 AM »

Isn't "Plate B" the double "damper" metal plate that's riveted and not the friction/fiber disc (pictured below as number 7)? The doubled plate should hold the fourth position of metal plates from the top - which works best when using all stock plates and not mix/matching. If you are using the Barnett plates and discs like me, I used 6 of the included discs from their kit (negating the Honda OEM double metal disc) and 7 fiber discs and the total height worked fine. The Honda double metal disc raised the entire assembly enough to make the stack too tall which messed with the actuation of the lifter rod.

flatlander · « **Reply #38 on:** March 13, 2016, 01:48:44 AM »

with plate B i mean no. 5 in the graphic. might have used the wrong term but anyway, the one with the slightly wider tabs that sits on top of the basket.

i'm not using the damper plate.

so in terms of number in the pic, i have:
A - 1x no.5 friction plate, OEM 550
B - 7x no.4 friction plate, OEM 550
C - 1x no. 6 steel disc, OEM 550
D - 6x steel disc, OEM 500

deviations from 550 stock config in bold.

with this combination the stacked hight of items B, C, D is the same as the all-stock 550 ones consisting of 6x no. 4 steel disc and 6x no. 4 friction plate.

flatlander · « **Reply #39 on:** March 13, 2016, 05:20:09 AM »

some pictures before i install it.

original 550 config, with 7 friction plates:

modified plates/discs config, with 8 friction plates:

minimo · « **Reply #40 on:** March 13, 2016, 07:23:21 AM »

Should work since you said it's the same height but really working fractions of millimeters and any addition in height, as I have found will affect the rod actuation and screw adjustment - I found it better to err on the shorter stack height side since it's as though you'd be compensating for wear and you'd simply make it up by adjusting the screw. Pop this sucker on and let us know how your basket holds up.

bwaller · « **Reply #41 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:25:05 AM »

1st pic is mine, far less free space. 2nd, is a stocker on the left, mine on the right, both with a couple springs attached to lift the pack and show all the free space at the bottom.

flatlander · « **Reply #42 on:** March 13, 2016, 02:12:48 PM »

thanks brent, these pics are very helpful.
i see your stocker has the double plate which mine doesn't have (earlier model F1). therefore i reckon i'll be ok with the free space i have now, or even less. i suppose that will only affect actuation point, not efficiency. but please correct me if i'm wrong.

it's installed but it'll take a while till i'll give it a go because i'll have to travel for work next week. keep you posted.

flatlander · « **Reply #43 on:** April 03, 2016, 01:20:31 PM »

after seeing brent's pix i decided to reduce the free space somewhat. the nice thing is that by mixing steel discs from the 550 and 500, you can fine-tune things really well.

now i have 3 550 discs, and 4 of the thinner 500 ones:

with springs installed, free space at the bottom:

i ran this and it works well: i can get the engagement point to a good position, the clutch feels strong and is easy enough to actuate.

it's still more space then brent has. the difficult part for me was that i never had that doubled damper plate, so didn't have any reference as to how much free space there was in the stock configuration. i think i can try reducing free space further by adding more of the 550 plates to the mix. but that will take a while. at least until the next oil change, maybe it even has to wait until winter.
anyway, mixing 550 and 500 plates to fine-tune the hight of the stack seems to be the right recipe.

bwaller · « **Reply #44 on:** April 03, 2016, 03:41:20 PM »

I'm not sure why the difference, but regardless good for you for figuring it out. Mine uses all late model 550 plates. They are indeed different than the earler type. I replace them every three years in my race engine, 22321-329-000 which is for the 77/78 model 550's plus about 25 other Honda models into the 1980's. You'll find this clutch is plenty strong.

flatlander · « **Reply #45 on:** April 03, 2016, 10:50:44 PM »

i'm also not sure but hey, it works!
the thinner steel plates i use are 22321-KA4-700. these fit the 500 and some other models.
the thicker ones are 22321-GHB-811. these fit the 550 and others.

bwaller · « **Reply #46 on:** April 04, 2016, 04:50:09 AM »

There we go, at least three different numbers for possibly three different thickness clutch plates. Your GHB plate shows as being used in larger displacement newer models. That's also likely why it's thicker. The 329's I'm using may disappear but who knows. Is it too late for you to measure the thickness of those two different plats?

Oh mother Honda, it's hard to keep up!

flatlander · « **Reply #47 on:** April 04, 2016, 06:49:30 AM »

the GHB was offered as superseding the 329 which apparently was no longer available from mother honda.
i've got the thickness measured, will need to look it up this evening when i'm back home.

bwaller · « **Reply #48 on:** April 04, 2016, 09:49:43 AM »

Good, I'm curious now about any superceding numbers and what the difference(thickness) is. I'll measure the 329's later.

flatlander · « **Reply #49 on:** April 04, 2016, 12:23:36 PM »

22321-GHB-811: 1.95mm
22321-KA4-700: 1.1mm

i'm also very curious what the 329 is! it seems like all these numbers were used in all sorts of bike models and there's quite an overlap in fitment. makes you wonder why honda made so many different ones, many of which seem to be pretty much the same?

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Author Topic: 550f clutch basket/stack hight (Read 8764 times)