Author Topic: 750 oil pump question  (Read 3755 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
750 oil pump question
« on: March 03, 2015, 03:21:20 PM »
While waiting for parts for my trans to arrive I decided to pull my oil pump apart for a rebuild. My question is that after removing the 3 screws and removing the cover exposing the first set of gerotors shouldn't the dimple on both the inner and outer gerotor be facing me? The dimple I'm referring to is in the 12 o-clock position on both in the pic. And if so would any harm be done if that dimple on the inner gerotor was facing away? The reason I ask is because the dimple on the outer gerotor was facing towards me when I removed the cover but the dimple on the inner gerotor was facing away and who knows how long it has been that way. Any thoughts?
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Davez134

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,485
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 03:36:40 PM »
From what I've read and seen so far, some pumps had them facing in and some facing out toward cover. I believe they were just both (inner and outer) supposed to be facing same way. My best guess is to aid in replacing them together after dismantling pump?? If yours were different, they probablly have been removed previously and put back in with no attention to the dimples. How was your oil flow/pressure? If it was good, they may have worn together that way and be ok to put back in just like you found em. Measure clearances per manual and see. Just my thoughts, sure there is someone with much more knowledge about these than me to help ya out.

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 03:54:29 PM »
Unfortunately I never did check what the oil pressure was with a gauge but the engine never seemed to mind however I have been having trans issues which is why the engine is apart at the moment and I know that a properly functioning oil pump is critical for our 750's transmissions which is why I'm taking the time to replace all the o-rings and seals in the pump (thank you Elan!!). I just now removed the gerotors that are on the other side of the pump and the dimples on both the inner and outer gerotors on that side are facing opposite to each other as well.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline MCRider

  • Such is the life of a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,376
  • Today's Lesson: One good turn deserves another.
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 04:30:07 PM »
BG: any evidence its been apart before?
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,512
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2015, 04:41:55 PM »
I would be willing to bet that on average, on most regular old 750's that have never been hot rodded, that no one has taken an oil pump apart. Did it look like the bottom end or engine was ever apart before ??

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 04:43:31 PM »
BG: any evidence its been apart before?

None that I can see, all the heads of all the screws looked pristine.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 04:46:49 PM »
I would be willing to bet that on average, on most regular old 750's that have never been hot rodded, that no one has taken an oil pump apart. Did it look like the bottom end or engine was ever apart before ??

Can't say if a PO has had the bottom end apart but I had it apart this time last year when I replaced all the bearings in the transmission however this is the first time I've had the oil pump apart.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Airborne 82nd

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 05:12:20 PM »
In HondaMan's book p. ll-48 he states both go on the same side of the shaft.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750k-750-four-k-1978-usa_model7244/partslist/E++13.html#results

In this diagram both dimples face toward the #1 with the 3 screws.

Offline MCRider

  • Such is the life of a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,376
  • Today's Lesson: One good turn deserves another.
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 05:42:05 PM »
BG: any evidence its been apart before?

None that I can see, all the heads of all the screws looked pristine.

Hmmm  ???
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 01:43:29 AM »
I've got 2 other oil pumps I can use as reference, one from a K3 and another from an F2 so I'll pop the covers off those and see what I find later today.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 03:50:26 PM »
And the plot thickens. I couldn't spot the K3 pump, I've got it stashed somewhere but it was too cold in the garage for me to make a serious search but I did find the oil pump from an F2 parts engine. The first pic shows the dimples circled with black marker on both rotors facing me which is what I would expect to see when I first take the cover off however in the 2nd pic once I pull the pump shaft out to expose the rotors on the other side of the pump I see the dimple on the inner rotor facing me but the dimple on the outer rotor is facing away. :o I guess it is possible that a PO has messed with both F2 pumps but if they did they must've used JIS screwdrivers and had no problem breaking the screws loose because the screws on both pumps showed no signs of being opened up before. I still have to check all the clearances between the rotors but at the moment I'm inclined to leave the rotors oriented as they are being both pumps have already "broken in" that way.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline flybox1

  • My wife thinks I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,301
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 04:08:15 PM »
that is one hairy oil pump, Scott  ;D
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mineā€¦"

Offline Dino

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 158
    • HackAWeek
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 04:32:27 PM »
The tolerances are pretty forgiving for wear. Just put them back with both dimples facing out.  Check the clearance as you mentioned as per the manual and then check the running pressure with a gauge before you go out on a test drive.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2015, 04:51:53 PM »
that is one hairy oil pump, Scott  ;D

Yeah I know, it's been out of the parts engine for quite some time so it's had all kinds of time to collect crud. This is what the #1 cyl of the engine it came out of looks like. :)

Thanks for the tip Dino.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline kmb69

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,041
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2015, 05:29:53 PM »
Holy $%^t!!!
Burned that one down!!!

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2015, 05:54:58 PM »
Holy $%^t!!!
Burned that one down!!!

I'm not by any means experienced when it comes to transmissions but the shape the gears in the trans were in it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize the PO beat the daylights out of the bike before it finally dropped a valve.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline danyo

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 08:52:56 PM »
Two days ago I noticed the same layout of dimples when I opened my k7 pump. I did that just moments after watching Dinos video (great work Dino!) and first I thought that PO messed that up. That pump looked like never was opened before so I was a little surprised. I don't think its coincidence. Maybe it's not that important ???

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,019
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2015, 07:11:16 PM »
It's interesting the number of pumps noted above with dimples opposite each other: in all the [virgin] pumps I've opened, they all face the same way. Car pumps are similar. This was a general method (in the 1960s era) for machinists to mark the parts in production. My dad started his high school years working on a Buick production line, making first oil pumps, then cams and crankshafts, and he passed many of their 'secrets' on to me as a little kid, when I would listen...
 ???

When reassembling them, it is key to make sure they turn silky-smooth and the gear can be easily turned with a finger. If they drag or cog, take it apart and [basically keep trying] fix it until they ARE smooth, or the oil pressure will be lower and the wear cycle will start all over. This will later result in lower pressure and flow after the rotors and covers wear back in.

I have [re]taken them apart as many as 15 times in some cases after losing track of which lobes were touching each other, at which o'clock position: if you can make a picture of it when you open the cover, this will be much faster upon reassembly!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 04:05:43 AM »
Thanks for the input Mark. I can kick myself for not checking to see what the actual oil pressure of the engine was before I took it apart but it was obviously adequate because all my main and rod bearings look fine and the pump was supplying enough oil to keep the top end of the engine happy as well too. The only reason I'm messing with it in the first place is for preventive maintenance reasons, the problem I'm having right now is removing that pesky shaft seal.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,019
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 03:46:20 PM »
Thanks for the input Mark. I can kick myself for not checking to see what the actual oil pressure of the engine was before I took it apart but it was obviously adequate because all my main and rod bearings look fine and the pump was supplying enough oil to keep the top end of the engine happy as well too. The only reason I'm messing with it in the first place is for preventive maintenance reasons, the problem I'm having right now is removing that pesky shaft seal.
They can be tough!
I usually drill a tiny hole next to one edge of the metal lip (after the rubber is all ripped out...) with a tiny drill, like .033" or so. Then I can bend in the edge of the lip so I can drill another tiny hole thru the lip, then pick it out with a pick. Although this sounds cumbersome, it beats all other methods I have tried before.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 04:42:18 PM »


I usually drill a tiny hole next to one edge of the metal lip (after the rubber is all ripped out...) with a tiny drill, like .033" or so.

I just got it out a little bit ago and that's how I did it. I've done it before that way but decided to try another way this time but it didn't work out for me so I went back to the tiny drill bit method and got it out. I just have to get everything cleaned up and then start checking clearances. A trans I picked up on ebay showed up today so I'll be doing a lot of measuring this weekend. 8)
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2015, 06:03:01 AM »
Well I followed Hondamans advice by test fitting the rotors making sure everything moved smoothly and I found that if I had the dimples on the rotors facing the same way which is how I would expect them to be I ended up with a ever so slight notchy feeling when I turned it so once all was said and done the dimples ended up being oriented the same way they were when I first took it apart and I came up with a clearance of between .002" and .0025" which is well within tolerance so it's good to go. I also waited until I was happy with the rotors before I finally installed the shaft seal because I didn't want to risk damaging that new seal during all the test fitting. I'll be having an oil pressure gauge on the engine at start up to make sure all is well.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Grinnin

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 121
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2015, 02:40:04 PM »
Took apart 2 oil pumps today and the wear clearly showed how they had been assembled.  The better pump had the dimples reversed.  These pics are of the pump that's pumped more grit.

Intake/outflow Faces:
On the pressure pump, the oil seal keeps the center of the inner rotor from rubbing against any metal.  A ring around the shaft showed linear milling marks, not concentric-ring wear marks.  The inner face of the inner rotor of the scavenger pumps had slightly MORE wear near the shaft instead of less.

The outer rotor showed more wear around the outer 3mm where the pump body is continuous.  There was less wear where the rotor mates against the cutouts for oil intake and outlet.

Blocked-off Faces:
The wear on the outer faces on both pressure and scavenger pumps was more uniform.  The rotors rub against a continuous surface from the shaft to the outside edge.

The hardest to identify was the inner rotor of the scavenger pump.  On both pumps that I took apart, the other 3 rotors were easy.

(Language collision.  Two pumps each have two pumps within them.  Then there are inner rotors and inner faces and outer rotors and outer faces.  It's not your fault if you don't understand what I wrote.  One pic . . . really isn't that sharp either.)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 05:03:40 AM by Grinnin »

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2015, 01:46:46 AM »
I understood Grinnin, thanks for the input.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,019
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: 750 oil pump question
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2015, 10:11:16 AM »
Took apart 2 oil pumps today and the wear clearly showed how they had been assembled.  The better pump had the dimples reversed.  These pics are of the pump that's pumped more grit.

Intake/outflow Faces:
On the pressure pump, the oil seal keeps the center of the inner rotor from rubbing against any metal.  A ring around the shaft showed linear milling marks, not concentric-ring wear marks.  The inner face of the inner rotor of the scavenger pumps had slightly MORE wear near the shaft instead of less.

The outer rotor showed more wear around the outer 3mm where the pump body is continuous.  There was less wear where the rotor mates against the cutouts for oil intake and outlet.

Blocked-off Faces:
The wear on the outer faces on both pressure and scavenger pumps was more uniform.  The rotors rub against a continuous surface from the shaft to the outside edge.

The hardest to identify was the inner rotor of the scavenger pump.  On both pumps that I took apart, the other 3 rotors were easy.

(Language collision.  Two pumps each have two pumps within them.  Then there are inner rotors and inner faces and outer rotors and outer faces.  It's not your fault if you don't understand what I wrote.  One pic . . . really isn't that sharp either.)

Grinnin:
do you have any idea of the genre of the pump that had the dimples reversed, i.e., was it from a post-1975 bike? Curiosity is striking me...I currently have about 12 oil pumps, but all are from 1975 or earlier engines, all had the dimples the same way in this collection.

What brings this up is: your mention of the seal ring wearing into the rotor. On all of the pumps I have, the seal ring is well-embedded into the body (makes it a major pain to remove) so it can't possibly touch the rotor, and on all the pumps where I have changed seals, likewise. BUT - I don't think I have [at least recent memory] changed a seal inside a post-1975 pump in a long, long time, as all those later engines I have rebuilt (10 in the last 8 years) had good oil PSI to begin with, so I let sleeping dogs lie in their pumps: they typically have less than 25k miles on their clocks. (Most K5 and earlier bikes I see have 50k or 10+ sitting years on theirs, seal leaks then.)

There were a lot of "cheapening" steps done in the post-1975 engines to save $ in production. I wonder: did they start fitting the rotors whichever way they would spin, instead of the match-lapping (time intensive!) process that was obviously used in the earlier engines? I find this interesting overall, because in the post-1975 engines more oil was restricted from the top ends (i.e., smaller oil orifice by .002") to increase flow to the crankshaft - this is partly why the top ends get so hot and wear the parts up there faster on these later engines. If Honda was not paying so much attention to the later oil pumps, this may have been their Warranty Engineers' tweak to ensure engine longevity in the bottom end? The later engines also had a 500 RPM higher redline (especially used in the "F" bikes), so this is why I previously thought the orifice change was made, to support the crank bearings. Could be wrong?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com