Author Topic: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.  (Read 14206 times)

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Offline bwaller

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turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« on: March 07, 2015, 09:45:04 AM »
I'll break this open because I may be the only one with pictures. Without pictures nothing here is believable.  ;D This ignition mod. was turboguzzi's idea on his CB500 racer. He suggested I try it when the ignition I was using on mine failed for the second time. It's a simple transistorised system and as TG stated "if it's good enough for those bikes"... Suzuki used similar set-ups on several GSXR model years. There are single vs double pick-ups, but the ignitor units were different according to total advance, how the advance was fed, rev limits, etc. Suzuki doesn't advertise much about those differences, it's a bolt on, no adjustment system on those bikes. To TG & I it didn't matter a damn because the bikes aren't out there idling much. However we both needed to experiment with full advance settings for maximum power, so some adjustment was necessary. Therefore the stock Honda ign. plate was used and the Suzuki pick-up (s) are mounted on the inside of the plate because the signal rotor is short.





TG has experience with GSXR's and can enlighten more, so I won't (and am unable to) explain anything more than what I managed. This unit is from a 1989 GSX1100F (Katana). It's a single pickup and the built in rev limit is 11,100rpm, good for my needs. The signal rotors magically fits perfectly inside the Honda crankshaft recess but I had to enlarge the crank locating pin hole and find a suitable hardened pin to use. I had to machine some off the inside face of the rotor to perfectly align the rotor with the pickup once it was attached. The pickup needed some massaging as well to get the proper airgap I wanted. Obviously the plate needed some work too.





Again, I was only concerned with full advance settings and that happens to be 28-29 degrees. Naturally there are no timing marks and this will likely be a concern for most. I have a small 6" degree wheel I can mount securely on the left end of the crank and set to true TDC with a piston stop. Then I simply run the bike and use a timing light to set the ignition plate for 28d and Bob's your uncle! I made a couple marks so the plate can be set "statically" for start up, then I use the degree wheel. This is a nuisance but there is nothing stock about any of this. I suppose the timing could be set statically too, not sure what TG did here.

There is a third ground wire from the ign plate otherwise two wires to the ignitor box. Wiring the box is simple,
1) 12V power in
2) one wire to each coil
3) a tach wire that didn't seem to drive my Krober?
4) Ground wire

I use Dyna 3ohm coils but regardless it doesn't matter. I emailed TG to add his knowledge on the topic. I'm very happy, but honestly it's not exactly a "plug n play" system change. Timing might be an issue but certainly possible. Remember on the Suzuki's there was no adjustment necessary, so get it right and leave it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 04:01:16 AM by bwaller »

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2015, 03:44:31 PM »
my 0.02$
gsxr coils are good too.
remember to run this setup with 5-10K ohm caps AND R plugs for best effect.
i have a ign box that looks exactly the same in my XT600, so check out that it is indeed coming from a 4 - cyl job.
as a starting point for  timing, the metal core of the coil should be at about hours six, i.e. oposite the little tab with the groove you use to check timing.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2015, 05:11:13 PM »
It would be great if someone could make these up and sell them, there must be thousands of old honda points plated and old GSXR ignitions laying around, it seems this wouldn't be an expensive proposition at all...  Thanks for starting this thread guys... ;)
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2015, 06:29:36 AM »
ok RR, you gave me an idea.... :) shame that i have no time :P
other nice points are that it is very easy to hook up a gsxr electronic tacho too.
never checked but guess you could use units from older 600/1200 bandits, katana's etc, too.

Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2015, 07:43:09 AM »
TG you used dual pickups, yes? I might add that I chose the Katana unit partly for the rev limit ceiling and to avoid another separate rev limiter, but in hindsight I always wondered if the dual p/u's would have allowed a closer setting. Rev limiters used to be around $100 so if the ignitor box built in rpm cut out is too high, there are options.

These ignitions aren't going to make more power over something else working correctly, but they do seem reliable. In my case with the ignition I was using, the bike seemed to do everything right but didn't prove reliable. One week after being on the dyno  where my original ignition failed, I was back with this modified Suzuki setup in place and gained 4rwhp, no other setting changes, all ignition related. Nothing to sneeze at.

   

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2015, 03:06:49 AM »
i used the single pick up like you

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2016, 03:46:43 AM »
Hi Brent!

So I'm trying to replicate this mod, I've got all the components and I'm about to fix the pick up to the Honda plate.
I've got a big doubt: have you change the position of the pin-slot in the rotor by machining a new one in order to position the pick up down there?

Thanks for the help
R.

Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2016, 05:40:16 AM »
Hi Ricardo, that was the best position for the pickup and only had to do three things.
1) enlarge the locating pin hole in the end of the crank and use a larger pin.

2) machine 0.75mm off the rotor face to align rotor and pickup.

3) file the pickup for proper airgap.

I can't remember anything else right now.

How has your season gone?


Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2016, 07:00:38 AM »
well, after a quite intense trial and error approach and A LOT of modding I have almost catch up with the faster group! I was very happy with my last race, during the first 5 laps I was following the leading group, then I did a couple of mistakes and I lost them. I ended up sixth BUT: the first two were racing with ducati tt2 with modern monster or multistrada engines (there were a lot of complains after the race...), third was Marco (the guy that won every single race last year) then Cesare (amazing race for him), then a ducati 750 that everyone knows has a 900 cc engine  >:( >:( >:(

There's still some room for improvement in carburation and in the front suspension, so hopefully I should be able to battle with Marco and Cesare in the next race  ;D ;D ;D

Going back to the ignition: do you mean that the initial pick up position compared to the rotor was not calculated in any way? It's very different from the original suzuki set up, so I thought you had changed the pin slot position on the rotor as well. Is the ignitor unit going to do all the math then? But then again why you would calibrate it... sorry I don't really get it   :-[

Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2016, 10:27:53 AM »
It doesn't matter which of the four rotor "points" lines up with the pickup. I installed the rotor to the crankshaft first, then with #1&4 cylinders @TDC, I figured where the pickup needed to be attached to the Honda ignition plate plus attempting to center the plate in the middle of it's three adjusting slots.

I did use as a strobe light and a degree wheel on the opposite end of the crank to adjust full advance to 30 degrees (for the 550 engine) originally. Later on a dyno I did some ignition sweeps and determined 28 degrees made best power.

Yes the ignitor box manages everything else, I did not do any calibration to it at all.

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2016, 12:53:20 PM »
It doesn't matter which of the four rotor "points" lines up with the pickup. I installed the rotor to the crankshaft first, then with #1&4 cylinders @TDC, I figured where the pickup needed to be attached to the Honda ignition plate plus attempting to center the plate in the middle of it's three adjusting slots.

I did use as a strobe light and a degree wheel on the opposite end of the crank to adjust full advance to 30 degrees (for the 550 engine) originally. Later on a dyno I did some ignition sweeps and determined 28 degrees made best power.

Yes the ignitor box manages everything else, I did not do any calibration to it at all.

Cool! So it's even simplier! So I fix the rotor, then find a position for the pick up to face one of the spikes on the rotor, even if it's the larger one?
To be honest it still puzzled me how it's that simple, don't really get how the ignitor will get the right info from the pickup+rotor considering that the spikes on the rotor are not evenly distributed or the same size...

Offline simon#42

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2016, 03:25:34 PM »
if you look at that first picture you will see one of the spikes is marked T,  i recon thats the one you time it up to !

Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2016, 05:42:45 PM »
The four rotor leading points are evenly spaced.

Offline scottly

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2016, 07:14:17 PM »
Brent, how much power did you gain by changing the timing from 30 to 28? If this is a CD type ignition, it may work best with CDI type coils. My FT coil is marked CDI, and has a primary resistance of .2-.8 ohms.
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Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2016, 07:21:45 PM »
It seems to me we picked up .5, but I don't think we printed those sweeps. I did gain a full 4 over the previous ignition though. It's not CDI.

Offline scottly

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2016, 07:29:50 PM »
I did gain a full 4 over the previous ignition though.
I'm not even going to ask what the previous ignition was. :-X ;)
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Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2016, 07:35:13 PM »
Best not.  ;)

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2016, 05:54:08 AM »
Interesting discussion!

I've checked some suzuki ignitions, and I never saw the spikes/points evenly spaced in any rotors, for example:

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Zundung-Impulsgeber-Rotor-ignition-pick-up-rotor-Suzuki-GSX-1100-F-GV72C-/361678617573?hash=item5435b9bbe5:g:soUAAOSw~bFWKfe7

They are never precisely 90° apart from each other (you can see it clearly from the wide one), and the pin-slot behind is always slightly off centered to the nearest point (you can see it clearly in the pictures on the ebay link above).

Based also on what you were saying on how you have installed it, it makes me wonder if, as long as the rotor is positioned correctly vs the crank (just like you did), it does not matter where the pickup is located because the ignitor will always get the speed and the position of the crank from the 4 points on the rotor: they generate a voltage wave graph that repeat itself with each crank revolution, but not during one revolution.

This is also supported by 2 facts:

1. your setup is super different from the original suzuki setup, the pickup is almost 90° away from its original position (added to the fact that the rotor points are not evenly distributed)

2. there are aftermarket rotors for suzuki bandits to advance ignition by 5° (seems like a popular mods). Some people are doing the cheap version of this mod: changing the position of the pickup plate by filing a bit the holes, but I doubt that it will work consider the above

Or maybe I'm highly mistaken :-) as this strongly depends on how the ignitor has been programmed... I've done some research but I can't really find an answer to this one
What are your thoughts?

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2016, 12:19:58 PM »
Ric, the pickup in the suzukis is at 12 oclock, in the sohc you cant do it as there is plate scew there, so i put  the pickup at 6 oclock... as its a 180 degree crank, no problem, you are like switching between cyl 1-4 and 2-3, very simple actually

Offline 01Thomas

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2016, 02:00:20 PM »
Brent, I realise that you're using this setup on a racebike and it doesn't spend much time idling, but what is the idling like?
Would this a be a suitable mod for a streetbike?

regards
Thomas
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2016, 05:08:48 PM »
Ric, the pickup in the suzukis is at 12 oclock, in the sohc you cant do it as there is plate scew there, so i put  the pickup at 6 oclock... as its a 180 degree crank, no problem, you are like switching between cyl 1-4 and 2-3, very simple actually

mhhh... in most, if not all suzukis with single pick up from late 80's onward it's actually at 9 oclock: http://www.ebay.com/itm/88-99-Suzuki-Katana-GSX600F-OEM-Signal-Generator-Assy-33110-17C00-/201621447925


Offline bwaller

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2016, 05:30:22 PM »
Ric, I'm not close to a rotor at the moment but I still think the leading edges of those four points were equidistant. It shouldn't matter which point triggers if so.

Thomas, a bit surprisingly my engine idles well at 2500+.  ;D  With smaller carbs it would be better, not sure how much the ignition affects idle. My CB750 needs a different ignition and when I get time I'll set it up with this ignition to test. I haven't ridden it in a couple years however because of this racing deal so it's not a rush for me. I made marks to re-install the timing plate into position because even timing to final advance with a strobe is quite a procedure. This creates a nuisance for a street bike.

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2016, 03:54:53 PM »
after a quick chat with Yossef we finally solved the mistery. Turns out you guys had simply a different suzuki ignition :-)

Offline Rocketman

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Turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 11:55:41 AM »
I have installed a GSX 1100 ignition on my 550, but am having no luck starting it.  I get spark at the plugs and can get the bike to back fire.  Almost like it is way out of time.  Here is how I have wired it from the ignition box:

Orange/White to positive side of battery
Black/Yellow to 2/3 coil
White to 1/4 coil
Black/White to Green/Yellow which is grounded at the ignition plate
Blue to Blue from pickup
Yellow to Yellow from pickup

I have the pickup positioned at one of the rotor points and the crank is at TDC for 1 & 4 cylinders.  Am I missing something?



Rotor with the 1 & 4 cylinders at TDC



Ignition plate
Update: Put the old ignition, Accent, on and it fired right up!  At least I know it is not a mechanical issue or a builder F@#% Up.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 01:45:43 PM by Rocketman »

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: turboguzzi/Suzuki ignition mod.
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 03:28:36 PM »
the only way to know what's going on is to put on a degree wheel and use a strobe light....

have you tried to swap the coil wires of 1-4 and 2-3?

try also switching the two wires from the pickup....