Author Topic: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?  (Read 1762 times)

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Offline eigenvector

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Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« on: March 14, 2015, 09:05:19 AM »
Didn't want to post this to the tech forum, because I'm not asking a specific question - rather just talking out loud.

I don't see too many 4 in 4 or 4 in 2 bikes of this era.  Any of them really - from Kawi's to Hondas.  Why the attraction to the 4 in 1 exhaust, to the point where even bikes that had 4 in 4 or 4 in 2's are converted over to 4 in 1s.

I don't understand that at all.  When I see a 4 in 2 I think symmetry, the 4 in 1's to me look lopsided and unnecessarily restricted in their exhaust.

It's certainly not restricted to 70's Jap bikes.  Even my R1200 GS has a single exhaust system when it's pretty obvious a dual exhaust would be outright better.

I will grant this - having 2 sets of pipes increases the risk of burning yourself and certainly offers more locations to get in the way of maintenance. 
Rob
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 11:19:21 AM »
is it not a vaight/cost..quest..?.4 in to 4 are heavy and kosty..and have often a cross over tube..vho make then not real 4 in 4..but a dubbel 2 in 2

4 in one are light vaight..and give more konstant backpressure.(.but fire order is not 1234 1234..that vhy cross over tubes are put inn to give a stabil flow in systems vith more then one exhost thamber
4 in one dont have this problems..just have all pibes same lengh  gives a good exhost...
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Offline eigenvector

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 12:02:06 PM »
Actually I had no idea what a cross-over pipe was until you mentioned it.  Doing some research online I still don't see why it wouldn't work (a 4 into 2) - it would just require tuning the exhaust and from what I understand putting up with a bit louder exhaust.  I've also read about performance issues - but we're talking about a commuter bike, not a racer.

That said, I do understand why there would be hesitations about 4 into 2.  I always wondered by some bikes had straight pipes connecting their exhausts together.
Rob
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1983 VF750S Sabre

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2015, 01:50:54 PM »
Well for me I think my F2 came from the factory with 4/1 but say for my kid's K3 the cost of putting a repro 4/4 on his is just insane, he instead picked up a used Kerker 4/1 off ebay. He loves it but it's too loud and obnoxious for me and leaves my ears ringing after a long ride. Back in the 70's when I was a young teen in the Chicago area 4/1 Kerkers were the rage on almost every Jap bike I saw back then. An older brother of mine had a Kaw H2 with Bill Wirges expansion chambers and that bike did look odd from the back with 2 pipes exiting one side of the bike with 1 on the other side. There's really nothing to understand because it all boils down to personal preference anyhow.
Scott


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 04:00:29 PM »
As mentioned, 4 into 1's are lighter for one, they also are better for performance, it has a lot to do with pipe diameter, exhaust gas pulses and to a degree, back pressure, 4 into 4's work better than 4 into 2's but overall, 4 into 1's are a performance option, hence their popularity {although not all 4 into 1's are made for performance}.. There are some very good articles online regarding exhaust theory and why and how it all works, it's a bit over most peoples heads though... ;)
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Online Don R

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2015, 08:35:39 PM »
 Around here the 4/4's all rusted out after a few seasons. Those that didn't buy a header for performance bought one because the factory pipes didn't last. An aftermarket exhaust could last longer and usually cost less then 4/4's. I just bought new 4/4's repro's and I'm coating the inside before they go on.
 That said, right now my K0 has a Hooker 4/2 that are the best sounding pipes I've heard in a long time and they look good on both sides.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 08:38:29 PM by Don R »
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Offline eigenvector

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 08:47:45 PM »
So they do exist.

Seems like all the searches I do on Google and whatnot always return 4 in 1's   The 4 in 2's (like the MAC) are for Yamahas.

I don't care about the weight or fractional performance changes.  I'm not racing this thing - I just want to see what's out there for looks and maybe restore it to original config.
Rob
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2015, 01:12:41 AM »
I don't care about the weight or fractional performance changes.  I'm not racing this thing - I just want to see what's out there for looks and maybe restore it to original config.

But you asked..

Quote
Why the attraction to the 4 in 1 exhaust, to the point where even bikes that had 4 in 4 or 4 in 2's are converted over to 4 in 1s.

I answered your original question, if you don't care, why ask...?  ???

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Offline strynboen

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2015, 02:54:30 AM »
forum dies..if peapel dont ask... ;
and then ve dont have off topic...vho gives the most fantastic and fun threads..and some of the vorst ever....
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Offline spotty

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2015, 03:52:09 AM »
4 into 1's are cheaper to make, lighter, are often tucked up higher/tighter on the bike - increasing cornering clearance, especially over 4/4's

they also usually last longer than stock factory 4/4 or 4/2 systems due to several reasons

a) it was often the welded on original muffler part that rusted out and most 4/1's have alloy mufflers

b) one of the main reasons that the muffler rusted out was due to the relatively low amounts of hot gases passing through each individual pipe, the muffler area would take a longer time to heat up enough to dissipate the condensation that will always collect whenever an engine is started into cold pipes. hence this condensation stays and rapidly rusts out the thin steel mufflers. lots of these mufflers had a little drain hole in the lowest part of the muffler but this usually blocked up with carbon quite quickly
as a 4/1 will have all 4 cylinders worth of hot gas passing through the one muffler the muffler gets a lot hotter a lot quicker, so even steel mufflered 4/1's will rarely rust out (i used to have a Walker Indy full race system 4/1 with a welded on steel muffler that was at least 25 years old when i got it and it still only had a bit of surface rust, i also had a set of orig CB750 4/4 pipes that had been taken off the orig bike when it was only 2 years old and were rusted to pieces)

and to many they do sound better (personal perspective of course)

the performance boost theoretically comes from improved scavenging of exhaust gases due to the gas from one cylinder passing the end of another header pipe at the collector or junction area. this gas creates a partial vacuum in the second header which then draws the exhaust gas out of that pipe and as that pipe empties it creates a vacuum in pipe three and so on (not the most technical explanation i know, but hopefully you get the idea)
i blame Terry

Offline ekpent

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2015, 04:45:03 AM »
 I always like those old stories that are told about dealerships back in the day dumping stock pipes into the dumpster because so many people wanted aftermarket right out of the showrooms.   :o
   No 4 into 1 on these bikes  ;)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 04:49:48 AM by ekpent »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2015, 05:16:46 AM »
I always like those old stories that are told about dealerships back in the day dumping stock pipes into the dumpster because so many people wanted aftermarket right out of the showrooms.   :o
   No 4 into 1 on these bikes  ;)

Look at Yoshimura's yello CR, same era, and it has a 4 into 1 thats still replicated today.... ;)



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Offline eigenvector

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 09:27:35 AM »
I don't care about the weight or fractional performance changes.  I'm not racing this thing - I just want to see what's out there for looks and maybe restore it to original config.

But you asked..

Quote
Why the attraction to the 4 in 1 exhaust, to the point where even bikes that had 4 in 4 or 4 in 2's are converted over to 4 in 1s.

I answered your original question, if you don't care, why ask...?  ???

I wasn't trying to be a jerk or something - I was really just trying to stimulate some conversation.  And please don't take my comment as being a statement of absolutism - very little of what I say is intended as being interpreted as gospel truth.  You know - I say something a bit off-handed, someone replies, another replies to that reply, so on and so forth. 

So really all I gathered from this was - people just generally don't like 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's because on all criteria except aesthetics, the 4 in 1's are 'better'
Rob
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1983 VF750S Sabre

Offline eigenvector

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2015, 10:56:28 AM »
I always like those old stories that are told about dealerships back in the day dumping stock pipes into the dumpster because so many people wanted aftermarket right out of the showrooms.   :o
   No 4 into 1 on these bikes  ;)

Look at Yoshimura's yello CR, same era, and it has a 4 into 1 thats still replicated today.... ;)



I have to say, that gas tank just doesn't look comfortable.  Couldn't they have tapered that thing or something?
Rob
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Why no 4 in 2's or 4 in 4's?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2015, 02:26:39 PM »
My god that's lovely.
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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