Author Topic: CB750 frame upgrades  (Read 8107 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
CB750 frame upgrades
« on: April 15, 2015, 08:52:32 AM »
As noted on another thread this will start a discussion to improve the handling of a CB750 for track use. I have applied some of the tricks learned from this site as outlined below. One of the organizations I race with requires an unmodified swingarm so perhaps others can chime in on that topic. My current setup includes 385mm shocks and (slightly longer) GL1000 forks with a 30mm offset triple. Result is 24 degrees rake and 106mm (4.2") trail. Rear axle is moved as far forward as possible for a wheelbase of 55-3/8".
Frame bracing is as follows:
1) Diagonal brace between forward downtubes. Make sure you clear the headers if this is added.
2) X brace above swinger pivot (where stock air box normally resides. Swingarm must be bolted in place when this is added since the pivot bolt flexes the frame inward. The X could extend lower than mine; not sure what the best scenario is.
3) Additional brace on 3 tubes above engine to resist twisting. Make sure it clears the throttle cables; mine had to be notched during assemble.
4) Doubled engine mount plates. I hand bent a top rear mount plate but later noticed Voxhonda makes a nice one. I also installed a larger 1/2" thru-bolt
John
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 08:54:09 AM »
I could not load all photos- here is the forward diagonal brace.
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 08:55:50 AM »
And the rear X brace
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,731
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 09:41:30 AM »
That's some impressive and aggressive bracing. Same steel as the frame?
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2015, 10:26:32 AM »
Yes, similar tube stock used.
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2015, 03:09:49 PM »
I have some pics, I'll get back later and post... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,805
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2015, 08:01:10 PM »
I have been hoping someone would start this thread, as I have lately been contemplating some frame improvements...never saw that diagonal before. 8)
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2015, 08:04:55 PM »
I have been hoping someone would start this thread, as I have lately been contemplating some frame improvements...never saw that diagonal before. 8)

I've seen a horizontal brace in that position before but not the diagonal, its more important to weld up the seams where the down tubes slide up into the headstock section...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 08:37:36 PM »
Top tubes welded up




General bracing








I'll post more as i find them... ;)



750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline johno

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,314
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2015, 08:49:05 PM »
Lots of approriate places to brace, I get excited about the engine bolts being  better fit and the two engine mount brackets being stiffened up, seems to me the engine can really make the biggest impact to frame flex if it is locked into the frame tight as.  I know Mark @ M3 went down a long path of learning and he advocates the engine being locked in, uses shim material tighten up the bolt holes etc, bigger stronger mounts and he goes one step more than me with the rocker cover to frame mounts.   To me it makes it feel like the engine is not in the frame but part of the frame, the biggest strongest member being the engine.
ciao
GRASSHOPPER SOHC HONDAS ARE THE MEANING OF LIFE.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2015, 08:54:48 PM »
Yes Johno, engine mounts can definitely be upgraded, there's a few people making engine mount kits, Rob {Voxonda} was one... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline turboguzzi

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,084
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 12:56:13 AM »
Here is the bracing on my gpz, quite applicable to CB750 too.

like Johnn, have created a support between the three top tubes, on top of that have also added bracing form near the top of the steering head tube to the two sides as well as bracing the corner.

Agree on tight fit bolts being a good idea, pierre des roches, the 70's American superbike tuner used to do just that, but quite a bit of work involved. at least in the rear mount that contrast most of the chain pull force, i did a similar solution to what is used now in modern sportbikes of a clamp fit over a large surface stepped bolt, off a Yamaha R1. It's also 12mm so I reamed the engine holes for a tight fit. on the chain side, i welded a support between the long spacer and the rear cross member to avoid bendign forces on the top bolt from the chain pull. My rear x-bracing was dome with alu 4 x 30 flat bars. as in an X brace its all about pull forces, i think this is lighter than round tubes and easier to produce.

Not exactly brace related but  with the rear x- bracing adding so much stifness, you really need to get the free play of the swingarm right by shimming or a made to measure spacer. too much free play and you can really feel how you are stressing the frame trying to torque down   the swingarm bolt. it doesnt make fitting the swingarm easy though, i actually expand the frame with a car jack to help!

That said, i've seen so many non braced frames in the winners cycle that i dont think any of this is top priority. Much more important IMHO is to get the set of suspension and geometry right.
unsurprisingly, most modern sport bikes have a threaded adjuster to take up play there.

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 07:25:50 AM »
Is that 1/4" plate for the top rear engine mount? I did not realize that would fit and that is a big improvement over stock. I added a second plate, but will try to replace the stock inner plate as well after seeing your installation. Mine is hand bent though, Rob's double plate is much nicer!  I agree geometry is first priority when setting up these old bikes.
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline turboguzzi

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,084
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2015, 10:11:55 AM »
johnn, you could make a stepped plate.... there's pinch 6mm bolt grabbing the stepped long bolt so it is more like 5/16 plate. your solution is not bad either...

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,731
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2015, 10:05:36 PM »
Frank aka 750 makes more robust and beautiful mounts.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Roach Carver

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,725
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2015, 04:27:02 AM »
.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,484
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2015, 04:31:58 AM »
As noted on another thread this will start a discussion to improve the handling of a CB750 for track use. I have applied some of the tricks learned from this site as outlined below. One of the organizations I race with requires an unmodified swingarm so perhaps others can chime in on that topic. My current setup includes 385mm shocks and (slightly longer) GL1000 forks with a 30mm offset triple. Result is 24 degrees rake and 106mm (4.2") trail. Rear axle is moved as far forward as possible for a wheelbase of 55-3/8".
Frame bracing is as follows:
1) Diagonal brace between forward downtubes. Make sure you clear the headers if this is added.
2) X brace above swinger pivot (where stock air box normally resides. Swingarm must be bolted in place when this is added since the pivot bolt flexes the frame inward. The X could extend lower than mine; not sure what the best scenario is.
3) Additional brace on 3 tubes above engine to resist twisting. Make sure it clears the throttle cables; mine had to be notched during assemble.
4) Doubled engine mount plates. I hand bent a top rear mount plate but later noticed Voxhonda makes a nice one. I also installed a larger 1/2" thru-bolt
John

John, considering a stock 750 is one degree more than a stock 550, our final frame geometry is similar, yours @ 24d, mine 23. That's a good race set-up, I'll bet you notice a positive difference in nimbleness with plenty of trail.

I think you'll agree that for the street though most of these modifications are not necessary. Not that it would be a negative, just probably not necessary. My street 750 frame is bone stock and it's like a rock.

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 06:42:38 AM »
It seems much better, but I have only tested the new 30mm triple once (last weekend) on a damp track so I was not pushing the bike. I've followed your threads and have been on the same path over two seasons finally resulting in this setup. Agree on the street bike as well, I am restoring a K2 for the street and have not modified the frame.
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline livefast_dieold

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 324
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 07:04:21 AM »
WOW, thanks John for the post, I was about to open it but you have anticipated me. The info are super useful!!!

Thanks!!!!
Riccardo

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,484
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2015, 07:05:04 AM »
Obviously these bikes are not cutting edge, but I think that 55.5" wheelbase suits the situation well.

Offline JohnN

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2015, 02:56:40 PM »
You're welcome Riccardo, I've picked up some new tips as well. As Brent noted these are not cutting edge bikes, but that does not seem to stop all of us from trying! Don't forget to check your frame and swingarm for alignment as you reassemble.
John
CR750 replica
CB750K2
85 VF500F
66 CA160
67 CT90
2000 Triumph 955i
69 Triumph Bonneville

Offline Badluckhonda

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2015, 10:16:23 PM »
So my current project is on hold because I'm Thinking about adding frame bracing. Would using gussets be better or using tubing like the bare frame above

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2015, 02:15:17 AM »
So my current project is on hold because I'm Thinking about adding frame bracing. Would using gussets be better or using tubing like the bare frame above

Either will do...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Badluckhonda

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2015, 09:20:29 AM »
Alright ! Thanks rocket. I'm guessing the must important one you could do is weld up those sleeved down tubes

Offline ratrap

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: CB750 frame upgrades
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2015, 08:51:09 AM »
.