Author Topic: Swingarm Bushings  (Read 5912 times)

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Offline mcinturff

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Swingarm Bushings
« on: April 15, 2015, 09:35:22 AM »
I'm going to tear down my 750 for paint and do some "while you're in there projects".  Can anyone give me some approximate dimensions for doing some bronze swingarm bushings?  I need some measurements so I can order some oilite and have my buddy machine them when the time comes.  Need i.d., o.d., length, and flange diameter and thickness.
74 CB750

Offline Davez134

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 10:31:23 AM »
Do you know that the bushings you describe are readily available? If so, disregard. I understand guys like making stuff, just wanted to make sure you knew ya can buy proven, quality bushings. Sorry that I cannot offer dimensions, as mine are already installed.

Offline Powderman

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 11:38:08 AM »
Do you know that the bushings you describe are readily available? If so, disregard. I understand guys like making stuff, just wanted to make sure you knew ya can buy proven, quality bushings. Sorry that I cannot offer dimensions, as mine are already installed.
And buy them cheaper than you can make them, unless you work for free in which case I have a bunch of stuff you can make for me.

$25 shipped, I've purchased from this guy in Germany and they are good units:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB-250-360-400-500-550-750-Four-swingarm-bronze-bushing-set-bearing-new-/251851928293?hash=item3aa38b72e5&vxp=mtr

Wobbly

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 12:03:51 PM »
I upgraded last year to a swing-arm-needle bearing set (Parts Plus, made in Japan). Just another option one might consider.

Offline neurotoxin312

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2015, 12:21:11 PM »
Do you know that the bushings you describe are readily available? If so, disregard. I understand guys like making stuff, just wanted to make sure you knew ya can buy proven, quality bushings. Sorry that I cannot offer dimensions, as mine are already installed.
And buy them cheaper than you can make them, unless you work for free in which case I have a bunch of stuff you can make for me.

$25 shipped, I've purchased from this guy in Germany and they are good units:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB-250-360-400-500-550-750-Four-swingarm-bronze-bushing-set-bearing-new-/251851928293?hash=item3aa38b72e5&vxp=mtr

Are these bushings good quality? I've heard getting oil impregnated bronze bushings are better?

Offline mcinturff

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2015, 02:18:38 PM »
Do you know that the bushings you describe are readily available? If so, disregard. I understand guys like making stuff, just wanted to make sure you knew ya can buy proven, quality bushings. Sorry that I cannot offer dimensions, as mine are already installed.

I am well aware that pre-made bushings exist.  The fact is that many people who have bought these are dissatisfied with the fit.  I can have the machining done for free, and have a part that fits MUCH better than something I can buy online.
74 CB750

Offline mcinturff

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2015, 02:19:11 PM »
I upgraded last year to a swing-arm-needle bearing set (Parts Plus, made in Japan). Just another option one might consider.


How is the fit?  I imagine anything is better than the stock design.
74 CB750

Offline Oldtech

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2015, 02:37:18 PM »
Oilite is relatively soft and will wear quickly. Better to use proper bearing bronze which you can get in round bars of different diameters from any bearing supplier. I have a lathe and have used this to make bushings for a number of bikes with good results. Bearing bronze is also great for making bushings for worn pivot holes on brake and shift levers.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 03:16:11 PM »
I would message Hondaman about this. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have all these measurements.


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2015, 04:24:55 PM »
I upgraded last year to a swing-arm-needle bearing set (Parts Plus, made in Japan). Just another option one might consider.


How much..?
750 K2 1000cc
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline CBDee

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2015, 05:48:37 PM »
I upgraded last year to a swing-arm-needle bearing set (Parts Plus, made in Japan). Just another option one might consider.


Not necessarily an upgrade. These tend towards rusting out. You definitely don't want to power wash the bike with these bearings. Do a search before you decide there might be better alternatives. Jfyi
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2015, 06:08:01 PM »
I upgraded last year to a swing-arm-needle bearing set (Parts Plus, made in Japan). Just another option one might consider.


Not necessarily an upgrade. These tend towards rusting out. You definitely don't want to power wash the bike with these bearings. Do a search before you decide there might be better alternatives. Jfyi

Hmmm, lots of other bikes have them, I have a GSX1100 swingarm sitting next to me that all needle bearing, its out of a 1984 model and still perfect... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline NobleHops

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2015, 08:38:58 PM »
Who powerwashes a vintage bike?

I'll powerwash my dirt bike, avoiding anything that rolls or turns, but that's it. No Bueno.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2015, 08:51:40 PM »
Who powerwashes a vintage bike?

I'll powerwash my dirt bike, avoiding anything that rolls or turns, but that's it. No Bueno.

I don't even power wash my cars, it gets water into places it never gets by itself, great way to rust the damn thing out.... ;)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 10:37:20 PM by Retro Rocket »
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2015, 09:46:45 PM »
Do you know that the bushings you describe are readily available? If so, disregard. I understand guys like making stuff, just wanted to make sure you knew ya can buy proven, quality bushings. Sorry that I cannot offer dimensions, as mine are already installed.
And buy them cheaper than you can make them, unless you work for free in which case I have a bunch of stuff you can make for me.

$25 shipped, I've purchased from this guy in Germany and they are good units:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB-250-360-400-500-550-750-Four-swingarm-bronze-bushing-set-bearing-new-/251851928293?hash=item3aa38b72e5&vxp=mtr

Are these bushings good quality? I've heard getting oil impregnated bronze bushings are better?

I've installed three sets of bronze bushings from Kenosha Kid in Germany.
Good quality, good price, quick shipping.
Do you have a copy of the Honda Shop Manual or Parts List for your bike? Get one here:
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Wobbly

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2015, 02:59:18 AM »
@ retro
I believe, I bought these in Germany. Here is an example on Ebay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Honda-CB-750-K1-K6-69-76-CB-750-F1-F2-77-78-Schwingenlager-Nadellager-Set-/191554015180?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2c99824fcc
If you consider getting one, I am at a domestic U.S. military address in Germany and can help.

I believe that they are an upgrade, and this opinion is generally shared across all forums independent from the brand of motorcycles. It's one of those little improvements  that nobody can see--my favorite kind. They have been a standard upgrade in Germany for decades. As you know, the newer bikes use them too. I had them installed last year (I turned in the swing arm because I had it powder coated at the same time) while I installed tapered roller bearings in the front. Together with my Konis and Bridgestone tires, I think handling is at its best, leaving the look of the bike undisturbed, keeping it contemporary. But that is just my opinion.

Offline Bootsey

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2015, 03:17:48 AM »
I have those kenosha_kid bronze bearings - Installed they measure about 21.45mm inner diameter.

I've recently been speaking with Hondaman, and he kindly offered up some of his wisdom.  His suggestion is that the collar to bearing clearance should be .0008" to .0012"  & the collar should stick out .002" either side of the bushings, as it compresses when installed and tightened.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2015, 04:13:34 AM »
i'm with wobbly re. the needle bearings. installed them early last year.
i don't power wash the bike but of course, time will tell....

Wobbly

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2015, 07:03:44 AM »
As a side note: Everyone is free to "believe" what they want. I do not believe that bronze swing-arm bushings need less maintenance than needle bearings. Needle bearings are more difficult to install properly, but they are generally seen as an improvement over bronze bushings. Apparently, Honda thought so too. I simply wanted make aware of this alternative.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2015, 03:11:00 PM »
@ retro
I believe, I bought these in Germany. Here is an example on Ebay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Honda-CB-750-K1-K6-69-76-CB-750-F1-F2-77-78-Schwingenlager-Nadellager-Set-/191554015180?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2c99824fcc
If you consider getting one, I am at a domestic U.S. military address in Germany and can help.

Thanks for that, I may just take you up on that, I actually have a link to that same kit, but its being sold on from the US and its quite a bit more expensive... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Online Phoenix

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2015, 06:24:27 PM »
I read in a previous thread that this is not a proper use for roller bearings.  They pointed out that the small amount of rotation and back and forth action is not conducive to their design.  Just sayin.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2015, 06:49:39 PM »
I read in a previous thread that this is not a proper use for roller bearings.  They pointed out that the small amount of rotation and back and forth action is not conducive to their design.  Just sayin.

Well what about all the 35 year old bikes that still have perfectly good roller bearings in their swingarms...?  I have one such example right next to me as I type, not to mention the thousands of other bikes since that use them, I'll side with the engineers that designed the system rather than internet gossip and opinion... ;D ;)

Ok, after typing that i removed the cap and spacer from the swingarm and rotated the swingarm on the pivot bolt about 3 inches, the small size of the needle rollers means that they actually spin more than you'd think, thats probably why none of them have worn unevenly....
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2015, 07:30:17 PM »
Oilite is relatively soft and will wear quickly. Better to use proper bearing bronze which you can get in round bars of different diameters from any bearing supplier. I have a lathe and have used this to make bushings for a number of bikes with good results. Bearing bronze is also great for making bushings for worn pivot holes on brake and shift levers.

Umm...sorry to differ, but...no. Oilite is 26,000 PSI strength (you can also check all these numbers in the "Machinery's Handbook", any version). The cast composite bearings Honda sells are 8,000 PSI, the phenolic OEM parts were 6,000 PSI, and the original Zamac on the K0/K1 frames was just 3400 PSI strength.
I have built hundreds of swingarms with the Oilite material, and they last a lifetime for the effort. I still offer it as a service, and give a Lifetime Warranty on the work, as the engine will wear out long before the finished arm will.
:)

The SAE660 bronze is even harder, at around 30,000 PSI strength. I make racing arms and the smaller bikes with these, as the smaller bikes had smaller collar diameters and can use some extra strength.

The dimensions vary per year/model of the bike. There are 3 ID sizes on the swingarms, ranging from 1.0420" to 1.0444", the collar ends (when brand new) are either 0.8440" or .8444", depending on which type you have (none are available today, so you must either refurbish your old one to a smaller OD and make custom bushings, or make a new collar and fit bushings to that). There are also 2 different lengths in the 750 arms, depending on year.

All together, there are 12 possible combinations of STOCK parts. As your collar will either need to be polished to a new, smaller OD to make it round (or even smooth) again, there are no bushings that you can buy that will be a direct fit.

The clearances: the difference between the OD of the collar and the ID of the bushing is .0008" to .0012" max. With Oilite bronze, the fit interference should be .0004" to .0008", lest the bearing partially crush and deform during installation. Chances are, you will also find the hole(s) in your swingarm to be WIDER at the outside ends as compared to the inside, by somewhere between .0002" and .0012", depending on how hard the bike was ridden and how well it was greased over the years. The holes are also often oval along the axis of the bike, with the widest portion toward the engine on the chain side and the brake on the left.

Just a few of the words I give to the wise weho wish to make bushings for these: I've made hundreds and hundreds of them!
:D
;)
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2015, 01:32:57 AM »
Mark, what is the collar made from?  Is it case hardened?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swingarm Bushings
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2015, 07:11:01 PM »
Mark, what is the collar made from?  Is it case hardened?

The collars were case-hardened from Honda until sometime during the K3. Then they became polished, but not extra-hard. In the last of the 77-78 bikes they were hard again. Interestingly, it seems to make almost no difference in wear rates, unless things are not greased. Then the hard ones scratch worse but hold their OD better. The ones I have made for me are not hardened now, but with Oilite there isn't much need for it, as even when the owner forgets an interval, the oil in this bronze will "kick in" if it gets hot and needs some help in the short term.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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