Author Topic: The Jetting Process  (Read 2805 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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The Jetting Process
« on: April 17, 2015, 03:32:14 AM »
This is what I want. Please tell me if it exists or if I'm asking too much...or if it would even help at all.

A sniffer that measures air/fuel ratios that you can put in the end of your exhaust. I just want 1 because I have a 4-1 but you could have more for those of you with 4-4s. These sniffer(s) are hooked into my iPhone through the dock connector. A simple throttle position sensor that I can quickly put on my throttle or on the carb rack that also connects to the iPhone. I want the iPhone to have an app that I turn on when I ride around and it tells me at what throttle positions I have rich or lean mixtures. Maybe with a graph of what's recommended overlaid with my graph. Then it gives recommendations on what I could do to alter it. Like raise needle, or increase main jet, etc.

...and I want it for $4.99

I think this would really help people with limited experience. Especially if the app were written with the knowledge of the smart people on this forum. Plus doing plug chops can be pretty dangerous. Riding balls out then sitting on the side of a highway waiting for your bike to cool and replacing plugs.

Pipe dream? Unnecessary?


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Offline calj737

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 05:37:09 AM »
Who is your source for that high-end Crack, Dave?

O2 sensors along the exhaust system can certainly be installed to monitor the A/F performance. This data is either fed into a data logger, or into an EFI system where it manages and adjusts the throttle body and fuel injectors. The data logger is used to examine and guide someone on changes to make, based upon their experience.

I tinkered with the notion of installing an AF gauge on my bike, but then realized I'd only really need it once. Then tune, then it becomes an ornament. So why do it? The dynos have the exhaust gas analyzers already, so I can be spared from it.

It's probably a lot easier to book some time on a dyno, jet once based upon the results there, and leave your iPhone in your pocket while you ride.

Now, I know this thread was somewhat of a lark, but in case you didn't understand some of this, thought I'd give you a read.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 05:51:51 AM »
Haha, waking up at 5 am to get to work by 10 will make you think crazy things sometimes.

Yeah, a dyno would be an alternative. And I have seen these other implementations but for those of us who don't know what air fuel mixture numbers mean and what then to do about it once we get those numbers, a little "Wizard" (like helping set up a printer or something) would help. So it wouldn't give you a bunch of numbers, it would just say, "Hey, you were a little lean when you were at half throttle, I'd suggest raising your needle a hair."

This would be a temporary thing too. Just to help you jet for pods or a hot cam or something. And at $4.99 it would be a lot cheaper than a dyno. ;)

Let's say I book dyno time, I'd get a graph or numbers or something. Then what? I come here and ask what to do? Do the dyno people give me recommendations? Or do I bring all the jets and such there and play with it until it's good?


---
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Offline evanphi

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 05:51:52 AM »
Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno

;D
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 05:55:08 AM »

Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno

;D

A thought just came to me...maybe I'll check out a dyno? ;)


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline calj737

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2015, 06:15:21 AM »
Dyno operators should be competent to interpret the data and make recommended changes while you're there. Go prepared with extra jets so the carbs can be modified, then re-tested to verify the changes.

Inquire with the dyno operators about their knowledge, experience and comfort with your vintage bike. It makes all the difference-
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline calj737

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 06:20:37 AM »
Forgot about this thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,133424.25.html

You'll have to skip along several pages until TT gets to the data logger and graphs to see/understand what's being discussed. His modern bike was electronically tuned, but the principles are all the same. And you get to examine some very interesting graphs!
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2015, 06:49:24 AM »
I'll check it out, thanks. And I love me some good graphs!


---
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Offline PeWe

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2015, 09:01:46 AM »
Dyno will tell the settings and what to adjust with knowledge about the carbs. Adjust and test again. Easier to let the tuner do the jetting complete with dyno. I have booked time for that. I have to wait almost 2 weeks more for that.
A/F meters:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-fuel-gauge
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/07-04-0032-compact_07040020/#.VTEsk5P5MSk
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
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CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
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Offline evanphi

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2015, 09:37:53 AM »

Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno

;D

A thought just came to me...maybe I'll check out a dyno? ;)


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Here ya go...

--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2015, 10:51:14 AM »


Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno Dyno

;D

A thought just came to me...maybe I'll check out a dyno? ;)


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Here ya go...



Haha!


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2015, 10:52:54 AM »

Dyno will tell the settings and what to adjust with knowledge about the carbs. Adjust and test again. Easier to let the tuner do the jetting complete with dyno. I have booked time for that. I have to wait almost 2 weeks more for that.
A/F meters:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-fuel-gauge
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/07-04-0032-compact_07040020/#.VTEsk5P5MSk

Thanks PeWe, but these have to have a nut welded on the exhaust, not sure if I want to do that. Might just call a few dynos in my area or just stick to the old school plug chop. Or maybe now just go and watch Jurassic Park.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline evanphi

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2015, 11:28:08 AM »

Dyno will tell the settings and what to adjust with knowledge about the carbs. Adjust and test again. Easier to let the tuner do the jetting complete with dyno. I have booked time for that. I have to wait almost 2 weeks more for that.
A/F meters:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-fuel-gauge
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/07-04-0032-compact_07040020/#.VTEsk5P5MSk

Thanks PeWe, but these have to have a nut welded on the exhaust, not sure if I want to do that. Might just call a few dynos in my area or just stick to the old school plug chop. Or maybe now just go and watch Jurassic Park.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Dude you're giving me way too much material...

--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2015, 02:59:45 PM »


Dyno will tell the settings and what to adjust with knowledge about the carbs. Adjust and test again. Easier to let the tuner do the jetting complete with dyno. I have booked time for that. I have to wait almost 2 weeks more for that.
A/F meters:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-fuel-gauge
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/07-04-0032-compact_07040020/#.VTEsk5P5MSk

Thanks PeWe, but these have to have a nut welded on the exhaust, not sure if I want to do that. Might just call a few dynos in my area or just stick to the old school plug chop. Or maybe now just go and watch Jurassic Park.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Dude you're giving me way too much material...


Haha, love that version. John Williams would be proud.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline brewsky

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2015, 04:38:57 AM »
A few here have installed onboard o2 meters, but not for your price.

You could build your own if you are electronically capable, and there are instructions on the web how to do it pretty cheap. (at least for the narrowband type, which really don't tell you much)

You can pay a dyno shop to tune your bike for a few hundred dollars, which mostly tunes for max performance.

If you want to get picky and tweak the jetting for smooth all round performance at varying throttle positions, the onboard method can be better, but is also time consuming.

More info in this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,131472.msg1467197.html#msg1467197
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2015, 04:56:02 AM »

A few here have installed onboard o2 meters, but not for your price.

You could build your own if you are electronically capable, and there are instructions on the web how to do it pretty cheap. (at least for the narrowband type, which really don't tell you much)

You can pay a dyno shop to tune your bike for a few hundred dollars, which mostly tunes for max performance.

If you want to get picky and tweak the jetting for smooth all round performance at varying throttle positions, the onboard method can be better, but is also time consuming.

More info in this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,131472.msg1467197.html#msg1467197

Thanks Brewksy, I'm trying to read all I can about this stuff. The more I read the more it seems like plug chops are in my future, haha.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline brewsky

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2015, 05:13:43 AM »
Of course, the easy and cheap way is to stick with the orig air box and filter type, use a baffeled pipe (if you don't have orig 4/4's), and just use stock jetting.

This also usually gives the best all round performance.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2015, 05:24:11 AM »

Of course, the easy and cheap way is to stick with the orig air box and filter type, use a baffeled pipe (if you don't have orig 4/4's), and just use stock jetting.

This also usually gives the best all round performance.

Yeah I know that. But that's not an option for me anymore. ;)


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline mca2

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 03:48:37 PM »
Just to revive this thread...

I'm looking for the same thing: a wide band O2 sensor preferable combined with TPS in a data logger. I've been looking at the LM-2 offered by Innovate. But I have 2 problems: a.) i don't want to weld a bung in my perfect chrome exhaust b.) i haven't found any DIY solution for a TPS on our seventies carbs.

So, is it also possible to have a "sniffer" on the exhaust en guide this to the lambda sensor? Or does the sensor need very hot exhaust gasses? And does anyone have some creative idea to install a standard TPS on our carbs system?
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Offline riverfever

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 07:02:55 PM »
Dave I think this is a great idea and have wondered about it myself. My knowledge of this stuff is pretty slim (although I feel like I've learned a lot since getting this project). Living this high up (8500') has been challenging with this bike. I've considered having the bike dyno'd but running up to Denver still has me a little over 3,000' lower in altitude than where the bike normally functions. An app as you described wold be very useful.
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Online Don R

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2015, 09:56:53 PM »
I've got that and more on my dragster. I even briefly considered a temporary mount on the bike. it reads G force, accell and lateral, shaft rpm, engine rpm, crankcase vac, oil press, 12V on/ off, voltage, fuel press and O2 on one side of the motor at a time. I could add 7 02's, manifold vac, 8 egt's engine temp, trans temp, etc. We also record barometer, water grains, temp and wind. My laptop knows if the car will pick up or slow down.
 Trust me it's more than $4.99. by a wide margin. If someone builds it lots of them will be sold. Throttle position could be as simple as engine rpm's, already an electrical pulse and easier to record. Manifold vac could be taken into account and ambient temperature, an exhaust O2 probe could be used if it had a clip so it didn't fall out.
 It would be fun for sure, the technology is there, the price point is the obstacle. I'd happily pay a hundred for one. We download onto a laptop so a phone app could do it.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 05:18:21 AM »

Throttle position could be as simple as engine rpm's

Throttle position is different than engine RPM. You'll need to know when you snap to WOT because that's when you'll be using the main jet. You could still be at 8k RPM and not using the main jet if your throttle is closed. But a simple rheostat or potentiometer could be hooked up to it.

But yeah, I'm most likely going to be going to a dyno, because I want HP/torque numbers with my 550 to 674cc swap, but this little app with accompanying hardware would be awesome. And at $4.99 it would be a steal!

Honestly, I'm surprised that some place like Dime City Cycles hasn't made something like this. It would be much easier and accurate (and cheaper) than reading plugs or doing dyno runs. I know it'll have to be more than $5 (that was more of a joke). Hell, I'd spend $150.

Offline calj737

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2015, 05:28:13 AM »
DCC doesn't make diddily. They resell what others make. And purchasing EG analyzers worth a crap with the metering/filtering and analysis stations would be cost prohibitive. Having an "app" of the database recommendations to help fine tune your carbs is simple enough, but the wisdom to determine those changes and their actual effect (not anecdotal testimony) would still require the equipment.

Spend about 3 weeks on a dyno running the stock bike, stock induction, etc. Then, piece by piece, make changes, re-run it all, log it all, and you have what you want. But the myriad of changes you'll make will never cover all scenarios. You'd need 6-8 bikes (within the 550 range alone) to test stock, pods, 4:1, 550/650 cam, 59MM CI kit, Wisecos, porting changes, O/S valves, CR-26s, PDs vs 069s, etc. etc. etc.).

Just marry a woman who owns a dyno Dave, have RB bring his stable of bikes down, 3 at a time, and then invite 550 owners over a couple of weekends to test/tune their bikes. You should get all the possible configurations pretty quickly. Assemble, then sell/distribute.

All done.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2015, 07:00:41 AM »
Oh I know DCC doesn't make anything...I think they do bend the rear hoops themselves, though! And I know most of their stuff is cheap Chinese crap but I am surprised they didn't find something like I'm asking to sell just because they could easily up the price a lot and market it as a "home dyno" or something. And I guess it wouldn't have to give suggestions, but in stead just give you numbers or something that you guys could tell me what to do :). It just seems like every single "podder" asks what jets they should run. And I bet they don't do proper plug chops let alone pay for dyno time but rather settle for what someone tells them and assume the bike is faster than it was even if it falls flat. It seems like a market that would be receptive if it was priced reflectively low. Exhaust sniffer(s), throttle position sensor and an app connected to your phone. I think that's all that it would need.

If you can find me a good looking lady who owns a dyno PM me, haha.

Offline calj737

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Re: The Jetting Process
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2015, 07:22:24 AM »
Oh I know DCC doesn't make anything...I think they do bend the rear hoops themselves, though! And I know most of their stuff is cheap Chinese crap but I am surprised they didn't find something like I'm asking to sell just because they could easily up the price a lot and market it as a "home dyno" or something. And I guess it wouldn't have to give suggestions, but in stead just give you numbers or something that you guys could tell me what to do :). It just seems like every single "podder" asks what jets they should run. And I bet they don't do proper plug chops let alone pay for dyno time but rather settle for what someone tells them and assume the bike is faster than it was even if it falls flat. It seems like a market that would be receptive if it was priced reflectively low. Exhaust sniffer(s), throttle position sensor and an app connected to your phone. I think that's all that it would need.

If you can find me a good looking lady who owns a dyno PM me, haha.
They even buy their hoops...

Throttle position sensors don't work too well on on our push/pull mechanicals. Spring operated throttles and cables are too subjective to age, fatigue, routing etc to be practical. You think ponders would buy a sensor versus simply scour the internet? Some are too frickin' lazy to even buy a plug wrench let alone RTFM. You have too much optimism, Brother  ::)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis