Author Topic: Yet ANOTHER dyno result  (Read 8367 times)

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2006, 05:29:11 PM »
What state of tune is your motor in Joeb ?

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Offline mlinder

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2006, 05:44:31 PM »
I'm convinced that quite a bit more HP is available from these, at the cost of some tractibility.
No one here, far as I've read, has talked about enlarging the valves. This was the first thing done on my old beemer to get some more HP (and usable revs) out of it.
What parts on these break at say, 12k rpm?
With larger intake and exhaust valves, headwork, cams, pipes and proper jetting to match, I'm positive these could peak out at 12k before the dyno starts sliding down again.
Anyone done valve enlarging on these?
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2006, 06:08:00 PM »
If you go up 7 post you will see Mike refering to my 34mm inlets but my motor isnt built yet, should be starting soon though.

Mikes has them in his and they have 5mm stems, it makes for a lot more room around the valve to free up flow.

To get one of these motors to make useable power at 12000rpm would take a much more radical cam.
At a guess, it would also narrow the power band and call for a much closer ratio gearbox.

If you want to know more about getting these motors making power at high revs, PM Hondaman, he's had them making power a lot further up the rev band than we are talking about.

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2006, 06:17:22 PM »
I'm convinced that quite a bit more HP is available from these, at the cost of some tractability.
No one here, far as I've read, has talked about enlarging the valves. This was the first thing done on my old beemer to get some more HP (and usable revs) out of it.
What parts on these break at say, 12k rpm?
With larger intake and exhaust valves, headwork, cams, pipes and proper jetting to match, I'm positive these could peak out at 12k before the dyno starts sliding down again.
Anyone done valve enlarging on these?

I run the Kibblewhite 5mm conversion kit which uses a 34mm intake and 28mm exhaust valve. The shape is much better not to mention the weight savings which is improtant when you start revving these engines up. The big thing is enlarging the port throat to match the larger valves. I go to 90% of the valve diameter. This is easy to do on a Serdi valve machine. You stuff all the air you want in there but it still has to go past the valve and through the throat/seat. If these are not large enough you won't make all potential HP. This is where a good...like a Serdi...valve job comes into play too. I've all the things you mentioned(and more) and got 98HP on pump gas. It peaked at 10,000. Later cam timing could push that peak a little higher in the RPM range but that would sacrifice some of the midrange torque. Larger valves and larger cam would also push the peak ceiling.Spinning these to 10,000 is generally enough unless you're into alcohol or something exotic
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Offline scondon

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2006, 06:21:52 PM »
I'm convinced that quite a bit more HP is available from these, at the cost of some tractibility.
No one here, far as I've read, has talked about enlarging the valves. This was the first thing done on my old beemer to get some more HP (and usable revs) out of it.
What parts on these break at say, 12k rpm?
With larger intake and exhaust valves, headwork, cams, pipes and proper jetting to match, I'm positive these could peak out at 12k before the dyno starts sliding down again.
Anyone done valve enlarging on these?


   The weak point on the head I just dyno'ed are the stock retainers. It still spun up to 10 grand without any sign of quitting. Not gonna do that again any time soon though.

    Mike put a real nice head together for my next bike. Larger intakes and Ti retainers to go with all that nice port work. I really ought to take some pics and post'em 'cause it's................beautiful :'( :'( :'(  ;D Pretty sure Sam's got the same thing going into his bike and I look forward to seeing the increases in power.

Note: deleted some of this since Sam hit "post" first and covered a lot of what I spent a good deal of time pecking out on the keyboard. Thanks,Sam >:( ;) :D :D :D :D

Note: deleted most of the rest of this 'cause while I was peckin' out the note about Sam, Mike hit the "post" button and saved me from saying a lot about something I know little about. Thanks Mike >:( ;) :D :D :D

Well Sean its looking good maybe I need to have mine run on the Dyno to see what happens. 8)

   Yeah, I wanna see how good YOUR carbies do. Never seen a cleaner plug in my life ;)

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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2006, 06:23:28 PM »
Rods, bolts, the stock ones are the weak link. Mine limits at 8,500 rpm with these heavy 836 Wisecos on them. I did not listen to Buzz when he wanted me to put in the $1,100 Carillos. I wish now I had done it. After riding the bike and seeing these dyno sheets - the only way to a hundred or more is to significantly increase the torque - which won't be easy with a 2 valve head or increase rpm. Horsepower is rpm x torque / 5252, so either torque or rpm has to be raised. I put in the hi-perf springs, titanium retainers, stainless valves, and bronze guides - I just re-used my weak stock connecting rods.

Port area and valve flow are not my restrictors at this point - it's rpm. I'm still pulling really strong at 8,500, but the brain has me pull out of the climb. With those Carillos I'd twist the snot out of it.

Lesson I learned is when/if this K4 ever goes down - I'm spending some of my kid's inheritence on some fancy named rods and bolts....

Gordon  
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2006, 06:26:24 PM »
Sean   Sam's got the same valve kit I have in mine. I know because I sent it to him.  ;)Also...don't forget the good springs in that head. Vely, vely impoltant. ;D
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Offline scondon

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2006, 06:35:36 PM »
Yep, just checked the work order you sent with the head. Mine are 33.5mm. Next time, Mike, next time ;)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2006, 06:39:06 PM »
Rods, bolts, the stock ones are the weak link. Mine limits at 8,500 rpm with these heavy 836 Wisecos on them. I did not listen to Buzz when he wanted me to put in the $1,100 Carillos. I wish now I had done it. After riding the bike and seeing these dyno sheets - the only way to a hundred or more is to significantly increase the torque - which won't be easy with a 2 valve head or increase rpm. Horsepower is rpm x torque / 5252, so either torque or rpm has to be raised. I put in the hi-perf springs, titanium retainers, stainless valves, and bronze guides - I just re-used my weak stock connecting rods.

Port area and valve flow are not my restrictors at this point - it's rpm. I'm still pulling really strong at 8,500, but the brain has me pull out of the climb. With those Carillos I'd twist the snot out of it.

Lesson I learned is when/if this K4 ever goes down - I'm spending some of my kid's inheritence on some fancy named rods and bolts....

Gordon  
;D ;D
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2006, 06:43:38 PM »
I wonder if keeping it at 736cc, finding lighter pistons and such,increasing valve size, heavy duty rods, and good headwork could get you safely (and still be making power) at 12k rpm. Proper cam would be needed, and lots of low end would be gone, but you'd have more of a modern bike feel witht he engine (rev rev rev, basically).
Ah well, sounds expensive.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2006, 06:45:52 PM »
Sean, this motor that you have just dynoed, which head has it got on it, or have you got two magic heads ?

Sam.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2006, 06:54:22 PM »
Sean, this motor that you have just dynoed, which head has it got on it, or have you got two magic heads ?

Sam.
I did 2 for him Sam. Second one is nice.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2006, 06:55:36 PM »
He must be richer than you then ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2006, 06:56:53 PM »
He must be richer than you then ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
....not after paying for them ;D
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Offline scondon

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2006, 07:01:25 PM »
He must be richer than you then ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
....not after paying for them ;D

   Got that right ;D Which reminds me,Mike, the bloodbank bought two pints off me today. Pretty sure I'll have the rod money by end of the week. How they comin' along ??? :)
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Offline kghost

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2006, 07:03:00 PM »
Not to derail this thread ........

You guys obviously dyno tested at the rear wheels..........

Dunlop recommends against using any tire on the street that has been used in dyno testing......

Qoute: Never put a tire in use that has been subjected to on-the-motorcycle dynamometer engine testing. This severe use of the tire may result in tread compound degradation and subsequent failure.

http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/infocenter_tiretips.asp?id=11#tip

Thoughts? Comments?
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Offline scondon

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2006, 07:10:29 PM »
I think I'm gonna go take a good long look at my rear tire :P They're pretty good street Pirelli's and I haven't noticed any problems on the freeway this week. Better safe than sorry though,eh.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2006, 08:26:59 PM »
Not to derail this thread ........

You guys obviously dyno tested at the rear wheels..........

Dunlop recommends against using any tire on the street that has been used in dyno testing......

Qoute: Never put a tire in use that has been subjected to on-the-motorcycle dynamometer engine testing. This severe use of the tire may result in tread compound degradation and subsequent failure.

http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/infocenter_tiretips.asp?id=11#tip

Thoughts? Comments?

Tim, I have asked the question on a hyper sports bike forum.
It will be tomorrow night for answers as it's in the UK.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2006, 09:46:12 PM »
I wonder if keeping it at 736cc, finding lighter pistons and such,increasing valve size, heavy duty rods, and good headwork could get you safely (and still be making power) at 12k rpm. Proper cam would be needed, and lots of low end would be gone, but you'd have more of a modern bike feel witht he engine (rev rev rev, basically).
Ah well, sounds expensive.

It was expensive circa 1974, and a little work.   :D  With the transmission attached, 14k is possible, but not real streetable. Removing the trans (for 1/4 midget racers) lets them go 16k. I even got one with a trans to go that high, but it was pretty flat from 14k-16k, and it required running the oil pump from the end of the camshaft with a 1:1.6 or 1:1.7 ratio up-gear box and a different pump, with plumbing (into the main journal on the right side of the engine).

That said, 12k is streetable, if you're not touring with a friend, because the power band is narrow and low-end torque is reduced. First thing: buy a new oil pump. They wear pretty quickly into an 80% flow situation, like in 5k miles. Next, cam timing needs to be wider and later than you might think, because the engine is undersquare. Spark needs to come up later, or you can't leave a stop sign, then it needs to go further, like 45 degrees. The carbs must be polished, the intake tracts cleaned up and a pocket carved over the top of the intake and exhaust valves. Velocity stacks on the carbs are a must: use the longest ones you can fit into the frame. These provide a BIG improvement at (engine) speed.

I did it with transistorized ignition, triggered from Hitachi points with doubled springs, and the spark advancer's open/close ramp was reduced a little, while the open portion was welded up and smoothed to make sure they opened sufficiently. The condensers were hand-selected, as they vary about 20% intolerance: all this trickery might be avoidable with today's electronic ignition, but I haven't tried it, yet...  ;)

The cam should be longer duration and a little more lift (mine was only .033" over stock lift, +28 degrees, I think), but not like a dragster cam, more like a hot street cam, then set about 5 degrees late. Light spring keepers and stronger springs are needed: I used Yosh double springs, but I think MRieck has the dope on today's versions more than I have, at present. Yosh's are unobtainium today: they were roadrace springs, developed after Mann's famous Daytona ride. I don't know what the material was, but they were as light as plastic, and as expensive as gold! Get new (or steel) cam chain rollers and slipper tensioner. Try to find a heavy-duty cam chain, the non-master-link kind. Hand-smooth the edges of every tooth on the cam gear for smooth entry-exit of the chain.

Match all the intake tract (hoses, etc.). Spend so much time with the intake tract that you see it in your sleep. The K0-K2 heads flow better than the K3-later heads, probably because the holes are bigger. Polish the valves. Then polish the intakes again. Then polish the guides and the stems where they stroke in & out of the guides at the business end. Remove the valve seals. Make sure the valve clearance is .0008", no more than .001", or replace the guides (I would, anyway, for a roadrace-type setup). See if someone can install bronze guide inserts for you: tricky, but not impossible on these. They REALLY reduce valve stem friction.

Pistons: cut off the skirt, right up to the rib. Then bevel and round the bottom edge. (Today, someone might make shorter pistons, I'm not sure - but that would help.) Then, using a sharp scribe, make some vertical "scratch" marks in the piston skirts up to the area where the piston narrows down toward the wrist pin. Do this approximately 1/4" apart, all the way around the piston, not deeply, just until you see new metal. It should be about .005" deep maximum. This is tricky and time-consuming, but needed to keep the pistons from burning. At the bottom of each scratch, take a triangular file and smoothly make a notch around the edge of the rib, about .010" deep or so. Smooth the edges of all these scratches and cuts with 800 grit emery or cutting Scotchbrite. Piston clearance should be .0008" to .001". Use a 60 degree crosshatch in the bores. Get the one-piece oil rings and carefully smooth out the sharp edges on the ribs that connect the upper and lower "halves" of those rings, to speed the oil removal during downstroke. If you study the rings, you'll see how this works, and you can see what I'm getting at from there.

Get new piston circlips. Get new piston pins. Polish the piston pins if they drag at all in the pistons with 10w30 oil applied. Get stronger rods and rod bolts (although 12k can be done with stock rods and stronger bolts, if the rods are good and the bearings are between .0008" and .001" clearance). Bevel the oil hole(s) on the small end of the rod(s) to improve oil flow: it runs behind a little bit, above 10k RPM, because of splash limitations.

Install a windage tray. You'll have to make your own: Yosh got $105 in 1974 dollars for mine (that still hurts). Cut slots in it, or louver it with the vents opening away from the crank so that it "scrapes" the flying oil away. Clearance should be about .125" to .150" or so. 

This part is hard to describe, even harder to do: on all my 14k+ engines, I made every intake tract the same volume as the others. The method is almost unbelievable (I described it to RXmanGriff once, but it took a LONG letter...), but the results are helpful. This balances every power stroke.

You might wish to consider a gearbox with a low 1st and close-ratio 2-5 gears. Yosh made them, so they might still be around, here and there. It really helped get things started on the street, and Hell itself broke forth when 2nd was found: mine went 92 MPH in 2nd at 14k with a 16-tooth countersprocket, 48-tooth rear and 4.00-18 tire. Most street races were over at that point...

That's all it takes!   :P
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 08:48:52 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2006, 10:00:30 PM »
 ;)
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2006, 02:05:10 AM »
Quote
First thing: by a new oil pump. They wear pretty quickly into an 80% flow situation, like in 5k miles.

Mark,

Is this in reference to the stock oil pump? You mean it loses 20% flow rate in only 5K miles? :o
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2006, 04:40:38 AM »
Not to derail this thread ........

You guys obviously dyno tested at the rear wheels..........

Dunlop recommends against using any tire on the street that has been used in dyno testing......

Qoute: Never put a tire in use that has been subjected to on-the-motorcycle dynamometer engine testing. This severe use of the tire may result in tread compound degradation and subsequent failure.

http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/infocenter_tiretips.asp?id=11#tip

Thoughts? Comments?
I have seen that.Personally I think it is secondary to liability issues and speed ratings of tires. This is real important if you have a turbo busa on the dyno making 300HP or a lot more. Those bikes can turn the wheel at 180 or 190mph in 4th. My bike made peak HP @ 120mph which is within the tires speed rating ( Dunlop 501). Sean's was around 105mph. I only did 3 pulls and the tire was fine. I have made pulls on my FJ that did flatten the center but the tire was about 75% gone to begin with. If you are making 12-15 pulls with a lot of HP you can kill a tire...especially one of the soft Shinko's or Mickey Thompson street/drag tires. They literally melt.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2006, 06:52:33 AM »
Mreick I think you and I are the only 501 fans here.

You may have something there about speed rating.
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2006, 07:18:11 AM »
I run the Dunlop GT501's on my Honda and the faster H2. These are great tires and are V rated. I'll use them on my riders. For restorations that need to look period correct - the 501's are the last tire I'd use. No vintage tire had wild looking spirals down it's tread. Dunlop's TT100's are my vintage tire of choice.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Yet ANOTHER dyno result
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2006, 08:58:28 AM »
I wonder if keeping it at 736cc, finding lighter pistons and such,increasing valve size, heavy duty rods, and good headwork could get you safely (and still be making power) at 12k rpm. Proper cam would be needed, and lots of low end would be gone, but you'd have more of a modern bike feel witht he engine (rev rev rev, basically).
Ah well, sounds expensive.



.....That's all it takes!   :P

That's a lot of work. Sounds fun though. All that stuff for makinng power at 14k rpm, I wonder how much of it could be toned down for one that makes power at 12k rpm.
The redline on mine is already what, 9.5k. Just need 2,5k more rpm making power :) I think I could keep a bit of the low end tractability if all I'm shooting for is 12k. What do you think?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 09:01:25 AM by mlinder »
No.