Author Topic: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke  (Read 16137 times)

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Offline calj737

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2015, 04:30:30 AM »
While a two time engine blow up is nothing to ignore, it does not, in my opinion determine the reliability or dependability of a product. If the ignition were solely to blame, sure, I'd probably not risk a third time. But of all the units ever sold by PowerArc, if 2 or 3 units went bad, that's an awfully good record of failure. Dynas have been off and on, and I've got them on some of my bikes and not had a problem. Points fail, condensers fail. Everything man-made fails.

I chose the C5 units based upon recommendation from elsewhere, and was further comforted by threads on this forum. My motor isn't a drag bike, but for a street 500, it's certainly at the upper end of performance. So programmable or selectable curves was mandatory.

I think the inherent Achilles heels in a 750 (cam tower, chain clearance at the sprocket, gasket leaks, oil pumps, etc) can all be pointed at as "failure prone areas" and yet how many continue to run and get rebuilt? A drag bike sees the utmost stress for an internal combustion engine. Demanding 100% performance for 8-12 seconds form anything will exact it's weakness on everything. possible Johno had 2 units from the same batch that weren't properly made. How does a manufacturer test and verify a part for an extreme sliver of a market? Don't know how to expect that. These units aren't new, and they aren't only used on our SOHCs, so a prone-to-fail reputation would certainly be well known if it were the rule.

But when I get mine installed and run it, I'll let you know personally whether I'm glad or sad I did.
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Offline johno

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2015, 04:42:26 AM »
Hi Guys,
Re my engine failures;
With regard to the power arc system I have only experience with the 4 individual coil system sold as non wasted ignition system.
Based on comments from other members the dual coil wasted spark systems have provided reliable operation and have enjoyed success in competition so I am not making any comment on the dual coil system.

Any comment I make relates to the 4 individual coil system, I now have some experience with it but unfortunately it has been a frustrating and expensive journey for me, pride should see me want to make it work but I am not willing to risk another engine trying and so will use a more popular ignition on the new engine.

Re the problem it may be an electronic issue or software programming issue as the advance curves all lock in OK but the only cylinder that runs as set is number 1, number two is advanced, number 3 is radically retarded and number 4 mildly retarded.  For me its cheaper to put it in the bin and buy something else.   Life is short, gotta move on  ;)
johno
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Offline calj737

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2015, 04:52:41 AM »
From curiosity sake, Johno, what drove you to opt for the 4 coil system? Was it purely for the non-wasted spark?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2015, 10:59:47 AM »
While a two time engine blow up is nothing to ignore, it does not, in my opinion determine the reliability or dependability of a product. If the ignition were solely to blame, sure, I'd probably not risk a third time. But of all the units ever sold by PowerArc, if 2 or 3 units went bad, that's an awfully good record of failure. Dynas have been off and on, and I've got them on some of my bikes and not had a problem. Points fail, condensers fail. Everything man-made fails.

I chose the C5 units based upon recommendation from elsewhere, and was further comforted by threads on this forum. My motor isn't a drag bike, but for a street 500, it's certainly at the upper end of performance. So programmable or selectable curves was mandatory.

I think the inherent Achilles heels in a 750 (cam tower, chain clearance at the sprocket, gasket leaks, oil pumps, etc) can all be pointed at as "failure prone areas" and yet how many continue to run and get rebuilt? A drag bike sees the utmost stress for an internal combustion engine. Demanding 100% performance for 8-12 seconds form anything will exact it's weakness on everything. possible Johno had 2 units from the same batch that weren't properly made. How does a manufacturer test and verify a part for an extreme sliver of a market? Don't know how to expect that. These units aren't new, and they aren't only used on our SOHCs, so a prone-to-fail reputation would certainly be well known if it were the rule.

But when I get mine installed and run it, I'll let you know personally whether I'm glad or sad I did.

Well said and my thoughts exactly. I don't know why but there seems to be a hidden agenda when it comes to Power Arc and C5. With the exception of HondaMan, Paul from C5 Ignitions was one of the most informative technical (vendor) contributors regarding ignition systems on this site but some just wanted to run him off. Bummer
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2015, 03:28:53 PM »
While a two time engine blow up is nothing to ignore, it does not, in my opinion determine the reliability or dependability of a product. If the ignition were solely to blame, sure, I'd probably not risk a third time. But of all the units ever sold by PowerArc, if 2 or 3 units went bad, that's an awfully good record of failure. Dynas have been off and on, and I've got them on some of my bikes and not had a problem. Points fail, condensers fail. Everything man-made fails.

I chose the C5 units based upon recommendation from elsewhere, and was further comforted by threads on this forum. My motor isn't a drag bike, but for a street 500, it's certainly at the upper end of performance. So programmable or selectable curves was mandatory.

I think the inherent Achilles heels in a 750 (cam tower, chain clearance at the sprocket, gasket leaks, oil pumps, etc) can all be pointed at as "failure prone areas" and yet how many continue to run and get rebuilt? A drag bike sees the utmost stress for an internal combustion engine. Demanding 100% performance for 8-12 seconds form anything will exact it's weakness on everything. possible Johno had 2 units from the same batch that weren't properly made. How does a manufacturer test and verify a part for an extreme sliver of a market? Don't know how to expect that. These units aren't new, and they aren't only used on our SOHCs, so a prone-to-fail reputation would certainly be well known if it were the rule.

But when I get mine installed and run it, I'll let you know personally whether I'm glad or sad I did.

Well said and my thoughts exactly. I don't know why but there seems to be a hidden agenda when it comes to Power Arc and C5. With the exception of HondaMan, Paul from C5 Ignitions was one of the most informative technical (vendor) contributors regarding ignition systems on this site but some just wanted to run him off. Bummer

Enough of the conspiracy theory stuff Jim, I just don't work that way mate.... What I said was fact, Johno has chimed in to explain it better, facts are facts, its quite simple really...
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Offline johno

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2015, 03:54:42 PM »
Jim,
4 things.
Dont get stressed out cos you got something that someone else dont like, there,s room for all.
People retailing are always nice to you,
More people have  stated in this thread they had probs with other brands than power arc , so relax,
I am changing cos It costs lots and lots of money to change carillo rods , pistons , barrels, JMR head  etc and I dont wish to repeat it.

Some of the forum guys have appreciated how much time and money I spent and have simply stated I have had problems with the ignition and I am sure they have said that to help other people make informed decisions.

Why did I buy it ?  cos I wanted 1 spark on 1 cylinder, and programmable.
So Jim I'm done on this subject , hope things work out well with your engine.
cheers Johno
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2015, 05:00:20 PM »
Enough of the conspiracy theory stuff Jim, I just don't work that way mate.... What I said was fact, Johno has chimed in to explain it better, facts are facts, its quite simple really...

Sorry Mick. I was in a bit of a rush and should have elaborated. I didn't mean to direct that comment at you. There where others who appeared to be at attacking Paul and his products in the original (now deleted) thread.
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2015, 05:06:38 PM »
Jim,
4 things.
Dont get stressed out cos you got something that someone else dont like, there,s room for all.
People retailing are always nice to you,
More people have  stated in this thread they had probs with other brands than power arc , so relax,
I am changing cos It costs lots and lots of money to change carillo rods , pistons , barrels, JMR head  etc and I dont wish to repeat it.

Some of the forum guys have appreciated how much time and money I spent and have simply stated I have had problems with the ignition and I am sure they have said that to help other people make informed decisions.

Why did I buy it ?  cos I wanted 1 spark on 1 cylinder, and programmable.
So Jim I'm done on this subject , hope things work out well with your engine.
cheers Johno

I'm all good Johno. I've got my big boy pants on and don't need your validation to make me feel good about my purchasing decisions. I'm sorry you had such a costly and frustrating experience with Power Arc. I also recognize and understand that you where using a completely different ignition system than the one in my bike.

Hope you find a solid performer and winning combination on the race bike.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2015, 05:21:29 PM »
Enough of the conspiracy theory stuff Jim, I just don't work that way mate.... What I said was fact, Johno has chimed in to explain it better, facts are facts, its quite simple really...

Sorry Mick. I was in a bit of a rush and should have elaborated. I didn't mean to direct that comment at you. There where others who appeared to be at attacking Paul and his products in the original (now deleted) thread.

No worries Jim, I was actually supporting Paul in that thread.... ;)  Still not sure why it was deleted...?
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2015, 05:39:34 PM »
Enough of the conspiracy theory stuff Jim, I just don't work that way mate.... What I said was fact, Johno has chimed in to explain it better, facts are facts, its quite simple really...

Sorry Mick. I was in a bit of a rush and should have elaborated. I didn't mean to direct that comment at you. There where others who appeared to be at attacking Paul and his products in the original (now deleted) thread.

No worries Jim, I was actually supporting Paul in that thread.... ;)  Still not sure why it was deleted...?

I know.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2015, 08:29:33 PM »
At the time, it appeared to me that Paul's thread on the "parts for sale" was deleted because he was conducting a commercial business without paying for advertising. IIRC, the sticky at the top of the "parts for sale" board was added by Glenn a few days before Paul's thread was deleted. His posts on other boards were not deleted.
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Offline Cpcracing

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2015, 08:05:14 AM »
Johno, If you are tired of failures on your race engine with the power arc/C5, then what ignition system are you going to use?
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Offline johno

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2015, 06:37:26 AM »
Well CP,  kind of sounds like all electronics have their issues , kind of like rolling the dice  ::)

Well I will probably start with the one that most people have had issues with the dyna 2000.   For me if it fails to spark no problems I can live with that, but it must spark spark at the right time.

I narrowed it down to ARD maggy, Gerex like Mick and Scottly have, MSD and the Dyna.
The maggy has fixed advance which doesnt suit my engine and use  but no rpm limits. It does give me what I want in 1 spark / cyl.
The Gerex sounded as good as the MSD ( mick has one for sale ) as they are both same multiple spark which seemed to work well on the power arc unit in very rich lower RPM situations but looked a bit fiddly to install and had no RPM limiter but mainly draws a lot of amps and I run a total loss small battery only .
The MSD was my first pic but it cost more and had lots of functions I just done need on a salt bike so I thought dang I'll try the dyna.

Ultimately I would like one of those morse Harley maggys with the spark advance unit on and modernised internals but I contacted them about building a 4 cylinder , market too small they said.  Why am I so keen to have a maggy ? just old fashioned supersticious about something going on in the exhaust stroke when I'm playing with big cams and exhausts.    I know it doesnt make any difference between wasted and non wasted on 200 hp Busa but its stuff in my head from the old ARD days.   must be an old age thing  CP ;D
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2015, 10:02:34 AM »
Well CP,  kind of sounds like all electronics have their issues , kind of like rolling the dice  ::)

Well I will probably start with the one that most people have had issues with the dyna 2000.   For me if it fails to spark no problems I can live with that, but it must spark spark at the right time.

I narrowed it down to ARD maggy, Gerex like Mick and Scottly have, MSD and the Dyna.
The maggy has fixed advance which doesnt suit my engine and use  but no rpm limits. It does give me what I want in 1 spark / cyl.
The Gerex sounded as good as the MSD ( mick has one for sale ) as they are both same multiple spark which seemed to work well on the power arc unit in very rich lower RPM situations but looked a bit fiddly to install and had no RPM limiter but mainly draws a lot of amps and I run a total loss small battery only .
The MSD was my first pic but it cost more and had lots of functions I just done need on a salt bike so I thought dang I'll try the dyna.

Ultimately I would like one of those morse Harley maggys with the spark advance unit on and modernised internals but I contacted them about building a 4 cylinder , market too small they said.  Why am I so keen to have a maggy ? just old fashioned supersticious about something going on in the exhaust stroke when I'm playing with big cams and exhausts.    I know it doesnt make any difference between wasted and non wasted on 200 hp Busa but its stuff in my head from the old ARD days.   must be an old age thing  CP ;D


Johno,

I know you've ruled out MSD but I've been using MSD on my total loss dragbikes for since the late 90's. I've got a MC3 on my SOHC and it does have low and high side rev limiting capabilities. The MC3 is an affordable ignition system compared to the more versatile MC4. While I know running on the salt flats could draw more voltage over a full run versus a 1/4 mile pass, MC3 will work as low as 11.5 volts before it fails to work properly. I've actually raced my bike all day without charging the battery once I and never dropped below 12 volts. The small battery you mentioned could be replaced with an antigravity or ballistic which is a 14.4 volt battery so you would never be in jeopardy of the MSD failing due to low voltage. Also, if the MSD should fail for some reason, it has a bypass function that will allow the bike to still run from the Dyna S so theoretically, you could still make a run in competition. MSD also has a rpm output terminal to activate a shift light or other rpm activated device plus it has an ignition kill function. Personally if I elected to run the salt, I'd much prefer the MSD over any other unit because its sealed very well and works great in my opinion. Oh yeah, and never grab a spark plug wire while the bike is running.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2015, 11:02:27 AM »
 The MSD is a good ignition
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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2015, 07:17:19 PM »
Well CP,  kind of sounds like all electronics have their issues , kind of like rolling the dice  ::)

Well I will probably start with the one that most people have had issues with the dyna 2000.   For me if it fails to spark no problems I can live with that, but it must spark spark at the right time.

I narrowed it down to ARD maggy, Gerex like Mick and Scottly have, MSD and the Dyna.
The maggy has fixed advance which doesnt suit my engine and use  but no rpm limits. It does give me what I want in 1 spark / cyl.
The Gerex sounded as good as the MSD ( mick has one for sale ) as they are both same multiple spark which seemed to work well on the power arc unit in very rich lower RPM situations but looked a bit fiddly to install and had no RPM limiter but mainly draws a lot of amps and I run a total loss small battery only .
The MSD was my first pic but it cost more and had lots of functions I just done need on a salt bike so I thought dang I'll try the dyna.

Ultimately I would like one of those morse Harley maggys with the spark advance unit on and modernised internals but I contacted them about building a 4 cylinder , market too small they said.  Why am I so keen to have a maggy ? just old fashioned supersticious about something going on in the exhaust stroke when I'm playing with big cams and exhausts.    I know it doesnt make any difference between wasted and non wasted on 200 hp Busa but its stuff in my head from the old ARD days.   must be an old age thing  CP ;D


Does this mean you are not going to narrow down the ends of the exhaust and use them as jets at speed?
:D
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Offline scottly

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2015, 07:40:07 PM »
The MC3 costs around $850-$950, and you still need a trigger!!?? :o
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2015, 07:44:09 PM »
The MC3 costs around $850-$950, and you still need a trigger!!?? :o
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Offline johno

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2015, 02:31:00 AM »
Well CP,  kind of sounds like all electronics have their issues , kind of like rolling the dice  ::)




Does this mean you are not going to narrow down the ends of the exhaust and use them as jets at speed?
:D

Marko, wait until you see my new exhaust , you may have to eat those humourous words ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o
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Offline C5paul

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2015, 03:09:42 PM »
I would like to respectfully state a few things for those unfamiliar with us.

1) Power Arc manufactures and programs ignition modules and provides coils. They do not install ignitions or perform customer tuning.

2) Cycle X designed the CB750 SOHC with Power Arc several years ago and have tested and sold hundreds of ignitions to CB owners, including me.
   
3) I own C5 and we design/manufacture kits for motorcycles, cars, tractors, and other vehicles. We have never sold a 4 coil motorcycle system so please do not confuse C5 with Cycle X. Yes we both use Power Arc based ignitions but we are friendly competitors, not the same company. My first Power Arc ignition was actually purchased from Cycle X and I still use it.
 
4) We use the same ignition mapping for our V8 car systems as Ken uses for Cycle X four coil ignition kits and I have never had a "timing" issue with 1-4 versus 2-3. My understanding of the situation in question was a C2 (two coil) timing map was loaded into a C4 (four coil) ignition and that is where the issue started. Since I was not in business back when this happened I can't be sure, but I can tell you that if this happened, the engine would not have run correctly. Only the installation of the correct timing map back into the module would have solved the problem.

5) I cannot comment on what I am not familiar with, but I've had my fair share of issues during testing and running my own CB engines, and with hundreds of calls from customers. Most (especially a repeatable failure) were caused by one of the following:

Poor power supply from excessively small gauge wiring being used, poor/cheap crimps, or trying to power several coils through a corroded ignition and kill switch. I recommend all coil power come directly from the main fuse or battery. The trigger leads are designed to turn off coil power automatically when the engine is not running so this would not cause any problems.

Poor grounding of the ignition module (the backing plate is the ground) due to corrosion, paint, grease, or other factors

Incorrect sparkplug wire being used (we ship Moroso Blue Max 8mm 800 ohm/ft wire only).
Non resistor spark plugs, incorrect heat range plugs, or excessive electrode gap (0.028-0.032" recommended)

While all ignitions can suffer issues, most failures can be traced to one of the items I listed above, regardless of who made it. 
I tried not to come off as being defensive and provide information that is relevant to this discussion. If you like ignitions that you can fix without computers or technical help via phone, I suggest sticking with points. If you have questions about our system in particular I suggest sending me an email or calling. Thanks!

Please continue...


Offline johno

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2015, 09:21:47 PM »
Thanks for your comments Paul, any from experienced players like yourself are always appreciated especially practical trouble shooting tips.   I think for the price the dual coil system is good value.   My 4 coil case is history but I enjoyed reading your comments mate at least someone selling electrical has some pride in their products.
cheers Johno
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Offline C5paul

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2015, 10:46:27 PM »
Thanks for your comments Paul, any from experienced players like yourself are always appreciated especially practical trouble shooting tips.   I think for the price the dual coil system is good value.   My 4 coil case is history but I enjoyed reading your comments mate at least someone selling electrical has some pride in their products.
cheers Johno

Unless you are using "race only" crazy high compression or have dual plug heads, your assessment is correct Johno. A pair of dual tower coils is fine for high performance street or drag use. I have been using a small DF coil with fantastic success in all CB kits except the 750 (frame only allows our Quad tower coil to be used under the tank).
The good news is the CB350F, 400F, 500, 550 frames will accept the new smaller coils and are rated at 120,000 volts although we don't push them that high.

My point being....you have many options from low budget to high dollar, and they all have a place in the world. New technology is amazing and provides some of us with incredible improvements in operation if you don't mind using a computer to control your classic ride. Like fuel injection on classic street rods, not everyone wants to go that route but the advantages can be tough to ignore.
 


Offline somesuch

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2015, 10:51:53 PM »
I told Dynatek I wouldn't bad mouth the Dyna2000 further if they fixed it for me...again...no go! I owned two, both were replaced. The idea is great, I ended up with two duds.

Trouble in paradise, that' s all.

I would pass on that company as well...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2015, 04:16:47 PM »
Well CP,  kind of sounds like all electronics have their issues , kind of like rolling the dice  ::)




Does this mean you are not going to narrow down the ends of the exhaust and use them as jets at speed?
:D

Marko, wait until you see my new exhaust , you may have to eat those humourous words ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o

In 1969 I was 3rd-party to a couple of drunks who were discussing their chopper exhausts. One had a big-bore HD 74 (80 inches) with solid frame and pipes that went all the way back, then up along the sissy bar, pointing into the sky. They must have been 8 feet long! The other guy had individual straight pipes with ends tapered to 1" diameter (an otherwise stock-ish Sportster) that he had specially built, and had chromed. The latter was absolutely (and loudly!) positive that his buddy was wasting all that extra propulsion by pointing them upward.
:O
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Ignition options for a big bore streetable dragibke
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2015, 04:29:05 PM »
Well CP,  kind of sounds like all electronics have their issues , kind of like rolling the dice  ::)




Does this mean you are not going to narrow down the ends of the exhaust and use them as jets at speed?
:D

Marko, wait until you see my new exhaust , you may have to eat those humourous words ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o

In 1969 I was 3rd-party to a couple of drunks who were discussing their chopper exhausts. One had a big-bore HD 74 (80 inches) with solid frame and pipes that went all the way back, then up along the sissy bar, pointing into the sky. They must have been 8 feet long! The other guy had individual straight pipes with ends tapered to 1" diameter (an otherwise stock-ish Sportster) that he had specially built, and had chromed. The latter was absolutely (and loudly!) positive that his buddy was wasting all that extra propulsion by pointing them upward.
:O

Hahahaha, would have made wheel stands easier though.... :P ;D
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.