Author Topic: No Reserve Racing - Project and status updates  (Read 30036 times)

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2015, 03:43:16 AM »
The signature knee  :)

Great job on the little bike, Chris.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2015, 09:33:28 AM »
The cam driven advance system/points didn't work so well and was subject to cam chain whip and other undesirable side effects.  Honda moved away from the design and there are a few crank driven electronic ignition system designs out there for these type motors.
Hondaman's ignition system should help some with only using the points as an electrical switching system/trigger.

Your lack of any exhaust pipes/muffler is contributing to the below 3k lack of power/running issues.  Having an exhaust can, reverse megaphone or other design would change the backpressure and affect your tuning as well as the running and throttle response.  If your plan is to race without any muffler then forge ahead tuning.  But, if not, then get some mufflers right away and begin dialing them in. Velocity stacks work well at high throttle positions or wide open, sometimes they aren't as friendly to the low end power.  Keep the area around the stack opening clear of anything
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2015, 07:45:20 PM »
The main thing I find in the old Twins like this is: wear in the bearing surface on the inside of the points cam itself. To solve it and make the timing [far] more stable, I shim the cam out toward the washer that retains it. In the 350 twins, for example, the points cam had [plastic] shims washers under this points cam, either 2,3, or 4, to make the gap between the end of the cam and the "end washer" .002"-.004" of clearance. While not immediately intuitive, you will find the timing to be more stable at all positions if you do this, too.

What happens is this: the inside of these points cams wears with the impact of the cam chain bumping it along, and the plastic shims get hard, crack, and vanish. Then the cam tilts a little while it starts advancing, and the advance becomes both erratic in position and "jumpy" at full advance. I make the shims from shim brass sheet, today, and you MUST use at least 2 of them, or they will lock the cam instead of freeing it to move. If you can make 3, it works even better.

Then, make sure to apply some grease to the shaft upon assembly. This helps it to even out the 'jitter' that can occur if the cam chain tensioner(s) are not taking all the slack out all the time.

What tips me off that the cam is worn inside: it is not the same timing when you insert it 180 degrees out-of-position. Thus, one side is worn a little bit...

One of the things that tended to get the cam chain adjuster bolts stripped or broken (on 160 and 175 bikes) was the attempt to tighten up the chain more than normal, to reduce this "jitter". If the shims are holding the points cam squarely against the washer face on the end of the cam, it jitters much less without this "attempt", which really doesn't help, in the end.
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2015, 07:46:39 PM »
Oh- a tuning question: do your carbs have the "power jet" in them,like the CR carbs (and CB/CL72), or are they just the standard 2-jet carbs (idle and main)?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2015, 08:35:03 PM »
Oh- a tuning question: do your carbs have the "power jet" in them,like the CR carbs (and CB/CL72), or are they just the standard 2-jet carbs (idle and main)?

I believe they just have the two jets in them... I didn't take many pictures of the carb refurb, but the attached picture shows a before and after of the body.  The before body still has the jets in it.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2015, 08:42:05 PM »
I was lucky, in that the advance mechanism had the metal shims (picture attached).  I cleaned it up and put it back together.. and cut a coil off each spring.

So, maybe the ID of the cam of the OD of the shaft is worn?  It seems pretty stable after I rotated the cam... maybe that will be short lived though.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2015, 08:52:42 PM »
The cam driven advance system/points didn't work so well and was subject to cam chain whip and other undesirable side effects.  Honda moved away from the design and there are a few crank driven electronic ignition system designs out there for these type motors.
Hondaman's ignition system should help some with only using the points as an electrical switching system/trigger.

Your lack of any exhaust pipes/muffler is contributing to the below 3k lack of power/running issues.  Having an exhaust can, reverse megaphone or other design would change the backpressure and affect your tuning as well as the running and throttle response.  If your plan is to race without any muffler then forge ahead tuning.  But, if not, then get some mufflers right away and begin dialing them in. Velocity stacks work well at high throttle positions or wide open, sometimes they aren't as friendly to the low end power.  Keep the area around the stack opening clear of anything

Well... we've gotten ourselves into a tight spot.  The original plan was to use the stock exhaust, to save some money (which at this point is a laughable idea).  When then bought the rear-sets to save us some time... not having to fabricate our own... but those don't allow the stock muffler to fit on the shift side. 

So then... we decided we'd just get one of the many CL160 exhausts on eBay.  I let two cl160 exhausts slip by (didn't bid high enough) over a month ago and haven't seen another one listed since.

We just recently tried to rig up some pipe we bought from Jegs, but we're not having much luck getting anything to work.

So, yes, the plan was to have something on there, but we have yet to figure out how to make it work.  Unfortunately, this weekend is the race, so we only have one more day to figure something out (maybe 1.5 days).  I doubt AHRMA is going to let us race with open header pipes :(

It's also unfortunate that neither me nor my friend have any experience with welding or metal forming... two things we have since realized are skills we need to acquire.

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2015, 10:01:21 PM »
I thought that the CB160 used the powerjet carbs but I could be confused with the cb92.
Reach out to fellow racers in the class to see if they can help.  They often can help out and the racing community tends to be helpful, even for the guys they race against.

Lots of tracks in metro areas have sound standards requiring some form of muffler, but it really varies.
For the sake of having a powerband that has a wider range I hope you can get something sorted for the race.

Good luck!
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2015, 03:26:44 PM »
I thought that the CB160 used the powerjet carbs but I could be confused with the cb92.
Reach out to fellow racers in the class to see if they can help.  They often can help out and the racing community tends to be helpful, even for the guys they race against.

Lots of tracks in metro areas have sound standards requiring some form of muffler, but it really varies.
For the sake of having a powerband that has a wider range I hope you can get something sorted for the race.

Good luck!

There are some CB160 bikes out there with powerjet carbs: I have worked on them before. They might be the 1967-68 genre, end of the series? My fraternity "father" in college had one of these, and it felt like it had an absolutely flat powerband from idle to 9000 RPM, nonstop. The CB350 twin seemed to inherit the CV version of the same arrangement.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bikedoctor

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2015, 06:17:35 PM »
I was looking forward to the completed build and surprised/disappointed to

see it end!

I went to the vintage races in NJ and was pleasantly surprised to see an

increased participation for the cb160 races and gp200.

please follow up with your progress  and let us know how your bike how you

are doing, you've got me fired up and I'm rebuilding my own old cb160.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2015, 09:14:19 PM »
An update would be good, as it is a cliffhanger on the story thus far.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2015, 02:33:24 PM »
An update would be good, as it is a cliffhanger on the story thus far.

+1!

Pant, pant...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2015, 03:30:53 PM »
Really Really really sorry about the absence... while there were a lot of challenges we managed to complete one race with the CB160, so overall a resounding success!

We kind of burnt ourselves out... with so many straight weekends of working (and days of cutting out of work to sneak into the garage).  My friend and I kind of both just took a break from the bikes and did a little catching up on work and family time - I know - who the heck would want to take a break?  :) 

OK.. So, where did we leave off?... I believe about to head to the track without a working exhaust:
 
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2015, 03:47:33 PM »
OK... changing the title to reflect the good news.

After many trials and tribulations, which I'll get into shortly, we managed to successfully complete 1 race (out of 3 we signed up for) on the CB160.  There were 9 other racers competing and I just managed to pass a the racer in 4th place on the last lap... so I'm really happy we managed to do that well.

First off, my tireless crew chief basically spent the whole day on Friday (practice day) cutting, grinding, and beating on metal to get the stock mufflers to fit on the bike with one of the race rearsets. 

Heres a picture of his handiwork late in the day on Friday (in the trailer at the track):


One bolt will have to do ;)


My other good friend came down to help out... which pretty much consisted of him telling us how tired he was, taking naps, and periodically giving us words of encouragement :)
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2015, 03:58:01 PM »
It was late in the day Friday, but the sun was still out and we were on a high from actually getting the exhaust one the bike... so we decided we should go the whole nine yards and clean up the rusty header pipes and muffler.....

Bam!:


Now, if you look carefully, you''ll see we were missing left foot peg which we thought some aluminum square stock could substitute for:


« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 04:38:26 PM by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 by mid-June or bust
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2015, 04:11:29 PM »
So, just in case anyone else is contemplating it - you can not use aluminum square stock as a footpeg replacement.  At least not the standard hollow stuff you can get at Loews.
We got out on the first practice session on Saturday, and the square stock bent in the third turn after getting out on the track. (sorry, no picture)

Knowing I might not get a chance for another practice session I decided to just keep on riding... but that wasn't to last long.

Four turns later another racer passed me - giving me a cut-throat gesture, and then I immediately saw a corner working pointing the flag at me to get off the track! 

After pulling into the grass, the corner worker told me I was smoking up the whole track. We looked all over for oil leaks but everything was dry.  I guessed/suggested it might be the pipe wrap I just installed the night before, so they let me on back on the track for the last couple turns to pit myself out.

Apparently my bike was really putting out a lot of smoke... I had a lot of visitors (other racers) coming over to our pit area wondering what the heck the story was.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2015, 04:22:06 PM »
It took us a while to figure out what was generating the smoke screen, but we finally realized the old mufflers were coated inside with a layer of greasy carbon (there were even a couple of carbon/grease balls in there.)

When the muffler got hot enough, that stuff started smoking... really smoking.

So... what to do? 

It was at this point we realized there were some other bikes on the track running open headers  :P
I'm pretty sure it's technically not allowed per the rules, but it didn't appear they were enforcing it at this race.... so here's the bike with open headers:




You may notice that we put the race rearset back on the shifter side.  With the stock muffler removed it now fit on that side.

The story doesn't end there....
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2015, 04:35:09 PM »
At this point we thought we had all the kinks worked out just in time for our race on Saturday - wishful thinking :)

With friends and family watching.... I headed out for my warm-up lap before my race.  Everything felt great! 
Unfortunately, as I approached the starting grid (or, more accurately, my buddy to hold the bike for the le mans start)... I couldn't find the shift lever with my foot.  I looked down to see one of the bolts vibrated off and the shift lever just dangling!

This was pretty embarrassing, as  we should have race wired this part.  In our defense, we were use to the CB750 which is incredibly smooth compared to this little twin.  In fact, over the last year we were even complaining a lot about how unnecessary some of the "excessive" race wiring rules were.  Well, It might seem excessive if you have a smooth CB750, but clearly these old twins are a different story.

So we spent the first race watching behind the pit wall :(
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2015, 04:50:39 PM »
Our luck finally arrived the next day.

With the shift linkage bolts firmly torqued and "loctited" I headed out for the morning practice.

I did a good 6 laps and everything felt really good.  I was really surprised how stable the bike felt.. really solid.  Even when I made some sloppy inputs the bike was just super steady.  No wobbling, no flexing... felt like an arrow. 

I credit HondaMans' swingarm work... thanks Mark!

The only thing I had trouble with was adjusting to the difference between how it felt compared to the CB750... my brake points and turn in points were all off.  But after 3 or 4 laps I got the hang of the bike.

All ready to race.

And off I go:
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2015, 04:59:48 PM »
Here's a video of our start.

A little weak on the start, but once the RPM's got up there it just took off:


The revving sounds you hear are from the "pre-1940" class bikes in the wave behind us.

You might also hear one of my other good friend saying: "It's funny, but I can remember from our younger days that Chris was the one who was scared to go fast at all"    :)

Well... I went fast enough... I was in last place on the starting grid and managed to take 4th place... so I feel really good about that.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 05:19:12 PM by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2015, 05:05:02 PM »
Great video.  It's a damn good thing those are 160cc bikes!
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2015, 05:25:39 PM »
Great video.  It's a damn good thing those are 160cc bikes!
[/quote

yeah... it was a hot, humid, weekend... jump starting a bigger bike would have been a lot harder.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2015, 05:27:34 PM »
Here's a link to some more pictures one of my friend took.

Some good shots of me on the CB160 and the CB750, as well as awesome pictures of some of the other bikes at down there that weekend:
https://picasaweb.google.com/R.Shanemoore/NoReserveRacingJuly2015#
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 05:31:19 PM by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2015, 05:45:32 PM »
Ok... so now for some not so great news...

During my last race on Sunday (on my CB750), I took a tight turn too fast.  Well, not really too fast.. I think I was focusing too hard on hitting my apex and I leaned the bike over too far. 

I did have more speed than normal, as I just made a pass, but I'm pretty sure I could have easily made the turn if I just let the bike go a little wide... or maybe if I got my body off the bike more.  Either way I messed up.  The rear tire slipped out and then the front went down.  I slid off the track into the sand/grass.

Fortunately, I was only bruised up a little. 

The bike wasn't too bad off.  The handlebar is all bent up, as well as the steering damper, and I wore a hole through the points cover.  But I should be able to get everything fixed back up and ready for Barber in October:


- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Le Mans start CB160 - 4th place out of 9 in our first race!
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2015, 06:47:32 PM »
Again... I really appreciate everyone's help and support, and I'm sorry about the long wait for a status update.

We're planning on going to the USCRA event in NJ the weekend after next (9/18-9/20) to race the CB160, and then to Barber in October (10/8-10/11) to race both the CB750 and the CB160.

Also... I think new forum member BikeDoctor will also be at the USCRA race in NJ with his CB160.  Allan, thanks for the support and let me know how you're making out on the bike build.

- Chris
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA