Author Topic: help me decipher electrical system test results - OMP Vreg update  (Read 5722 times)

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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2015, 07:10:08 pm »
Jumping the field coil directly to the battery, I'm unable to get a 8mm spanner to cling to it.
Alt cover cover coming off ......
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2015, 07:23:30 pm »
Wait a sec. Check the amps with the field hot-wired..
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 07:30:49 pm »
Wait a sec. Check the amps with the field hot-wired..
talk me thru it.  New territory for me here...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 07:38:24 pm »
On second thought, that might just confuse the issue. If the battery is supplying at least 12 volts when connected to the field, and the field measures about 7 ohms, it should give a stronger magnet than what you are seeing...
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2015, 07:41:29 pm »
Spanner mentioned a bad ground at the field coil.  Where does it get it's ground?   I only see the green white leads?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2015, 07:50:43 pm »
The green lead is normally connected to ground through the wiring harness, as with all other green wires. The harness ground to frame ground connection is either under the seat or at the ignition coil mounts, depending on year. By jumping one field coil lead directly to the negative battery post, and the other directly to the positive battery post, you will have completely bypassed the harness and any grounding issues. Heck, you could jump the field to your car battery and it would still be an electromagnet.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2015, 08:00:12 pm »
I only have your picture of a BFW clinging to your alt cover to compare to.
I'm not getting the same result, and based on the tests, it's not my harness, so...do I assume my field coil is bad?
Any other tests I can perform?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2015, 08:28:18 pm »
If the coil measures 7 ohms, it should be good. You should also measure open between either field wire and the engine case itself. I'll rig up a test with a loose cover and field coil tomorrow and check the BFW effect with differing voltages applied...
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2015, 09:00:21 pm »
Yes, both white and green come up Open to the case.

Scott, you've been awesome.  I appreciate the help!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 08:41:36 am by flybox1 »
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2015, 04:47:04 pm »
Rob, I have to apologize to you and others about the levitating BFW test. :-[ :-[ :-[ The reason it worked on my bike was I had replaced the stock Philips style field mounting screws with socket head cap-screws, which protruded above the cover, allowing direct contact to the wrench. When I backed the two lower screws out, the BFW would stick. I tried some bolts with the screws tight, and could support a 10mm x 5" long, 70 gram bolt with 12.2v applied. With the coil out of the cover, sitting on a flat steel surface, it would support over 4.5 pounds vertically.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2015, 08:02:59 pm »
Haha...no worries. ;D  My field coil is good then. 
Back to the million dollar question....wtf is preventing adequate charging? ;D
I adjusted my vreg a little...still, nothing above 13.5v in all rpms above 3000...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2015, 08:11:29 pm »
Jumper the white field wire directly to battery+, and check the voltage at the battery with the motor running. This will bypass the regulator and turn the charging system all the way on. If it climbs above 14v at 3000 RPM, the regulator is at fault.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2015, 08:32:26 pm »
Will do, in the morning  ;D
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline 750K

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2015, 10:34:13 pm »
I got the same issue to sort out, between a busy work year in 2014 and getting sidetracked with other chores I haven't had time to dig into it. Tagged for interest in what you find flybox1, bout time I dig into my charging issue. Been to long that the bike has been sitting in the garage...
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000

Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2015, 03:51:58 pm »
Jumper the white field wire directly to battery+, and check the voltage at the battery with the motor running. This will bypass the regulator and turn the charging system all the way on. If it climbs above 14v at 3000 RPM, the regulator is at fault.
Well, as soon as I rolled to 3000rpm, the meter jumped to 16v, so I shut her down.   
I'll pull out my other Vreg and test again...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2015, 04:00:30 pm »
Ok...what are the chances I have TWO bad vregs?
My spare Vreg elicits the same symptom.  Max 13v charge at the battery.
Field coil white jumpered to battery+ gets me 16v+ if I get close to 3000rpm...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2015, 06:04:59 pm »
Stock mechanical regs, correct? You verified the reg input (black wire) was receiving proper voltage from the battery, and the reg green wire was grounded in the first post. The white wire is the regulator output. Measure the voltage drop across the black and white wires at the reg, ignition on, motor not running. Connect the red meter lead to the black wire, and the black meter lead to the white wire. It should be very low.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2015, 06:11:18 pm »
0.1v
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2015, 06:27:34 pm »
Check the drop with the motor running, if you can do so safely. Check at 1000, 2000, 3000 RPM.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2015, 06:42:57 pm »
Bounces around a bit...
1300rpm .1v
2000rpm 1.9v - 2.4v
3000, 5.4v - 6.2v
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline scottly

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2015, 07:02:15 pm »
The .1v at 1000 shows the reg points are clean, but the reg shouldn't start modulating the field until the battery hits 13.5-13.7 volts. The readings at 3000 show the reg has shifted to the 40% power mode, and was "dithering" at 2000. You can try adjusting it per the manual, or switch to an electronic regulator. ;)
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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2015, 08:20:54 pm »
Anyone have any preference on combo units?
Rick's, oregonmotorcycleparts, electrosport?

Ordered an Oregon Vreg unit.
Greatly appreciate all the guidance thru this thread!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:29:46 pm by flybox1 »
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Online HondaMan

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results.
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2015, 11:21:47 pm »
One thing to try to keep in mind: the spec for charging on the 750 is 13.8 volts max. The "regulator" system is actually a "voltage limiter" system that was designed to keep (1960s-style) batteries from overcharging and then drying out. In the early 750 the battery frequently overcharged and boiled acid out, putting it onto the frame, mufflers, and other parts. This necessitated a voltage regulator type change by the K1 that added a big (usually green) power resistor on the back of the regulator which is the "mid-charge" device: when the voltage gets above 13.2 volts the inner relay contacts pull open, which inserts this resistor in series with the field coil, reducing the charge to 7-8 amps (instead of 16 amps when the relay contacts are relaxed (NC contacts), at low battery voltage). If the voltage reaches 14.2 volts, the regulator-limiter pulls the relay fully closed, shorting out the field coil to itself, to reduce the alternator output to 0.5 amp until the voltage drops down again. This prevents battery overcharge and boiling.

If a "modern" reg-rec is installed because you want to have 1990s-like battery voltages, be sure to get a battery that can support it. The typical Bikemaster or Champion battery (Chinese-made) will not, and they will self-destruct quickly. An AGM battery can handle it, although they are expensive and often don't fit these bikes. I am finding that even the "maintenance-free" ones out there don't like having more than 13.8 volts pumped into them, either, so I have been making sure the regulator-limiters are properly set on the bikes I work with. The YUASA batteries meet the specs for these bikes perfectly.

If you have a Bikemaster or Champion battery, be advised of this: they have VERY CHEAP recycled, impure lead in those [piece of junk, Chinese-built] batteries. They will do some of the strangest things as a result: I have seen them fully charged, then as soon as the electric starter is touched, they drop to 10 volts. If the load is removed from them, the meter slowly climbs back up to 12 volts over about 15 minutes' time (without any charging). This speaks to VERY poor lead-acid absorption, which is caused by lousy lead and poor insulating plates (speaking as someone who made machines for years that build the world's finest batteries - Gates/Hawker/Enersys spiral cells).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline flybox1

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results - OMP Vreg update
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2015, 07:23:20 am »
I received my Oregon Motorcycle Parts VReg yesterday. 
Installed, I measured 15.1v at the battery at and above 3000rpm.
The adjustment is easy and I dialed it down to 14.4v at and above 3000rpm.
I'm running a Scorpion AGM. 
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline 750K

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Re: help me decipher electrical system test results - OMP Vreg update
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2015, 05:43:56 pm »
Did you get the v.reg/rec combo, or just the regulator by itself?
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000