Author Topic: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??  (Read 3508 times)

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Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 11:34:01 AM »
Okay, so I think I figured out how to pm hondaman...sent him a message!

Offline BobbyR

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 02:01:49 PM »
With Pods and 4-1 exhaust, the motor is no longer in stock breathing condition. Your mods need to be dialed in. There is less restriction on intake and exhaust and this will degrade performance until corrected. You can find threads on how people have dialed in those mods. 

Before you do your timing, I would suggest you remove the advancer and clean and lubricate the centrifugal arms.
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Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2015, 02:31:07 PM »
Yes thats a good point, everything would be different then stock with the changes that were made. Although none has heard this bike run in 20 years there was bound to be a battle with it anyways...I just ordered new OEM Honda coils for it no more messing around...They should be in Friday so I will install then and test it out.

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2015, 03:03:26 PM »
I just ordered new OEM Honda coils for it no more messing around...They should be in Friday so I will install then and test it out.
Good choice.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2015, 04:19:20 PM »
Those sparkplugs: here's the skinny on them -

The post-1975 SOHC4 bikes came OEM with 10,000 ohm sparkplug caps. (The earlier ones were 7500 ohms.) This was done for 2 reasons: one was [obstensibly] to make Honda look more like the 'nice guys' by reducing interference to nearby car radios (AM radio) while sitting in traffic in the 1970s. The second, and far more plausible, reason was: they needed a longer spark duration in the hemi-shaped combustion chambers of the post-1975 head designs on all of these bikes. Adding resistance to the plug caps was the easiest way to get it back then, so they also changed the coils in 1975 on ALL of these bikes to be 4.3 ohm primaries (instead of the earlier 4.6 ohm typical value) to decrease the turns ratio and increase the spark voltage a little (almost 1000 volts). Between these 2 changes, the spark duration came out the same as in the earlier bikes, but with about 800 volts more spark voltage at the plugs. This was needed because the cams were moved back about 5 degrees (intake open measurement) to meet EPA emissions regs at the time, which made the power appear later in the RPM range (5500 instead of 4700-ish) and caused a new cold-blooded nature to appear.

Today, we can't find the 10,000 ohm plug caps for nuthin'. The most we can usually do is get the 5000 ohm types. But...if you also add the 2000 ohm sparkplugs (DR8ES-L or XR24ES-U) then you can approach the earlier 7500 ohm spec, in which case you can use the earlier coils and that combo to get the longer-duration spark back. That's a pretty good thing!

The original 1969-1970 sparkplug for these bikes was the D8ES. This was a plug that could handle heat up to 10,000 RPM ranges while staying clean at D7E-type (cold environment) temperatures, and stay clean. The EPA forced ND/NGK to stop making these sparkplugs in 1998, stating that "we (the EPA) do not believe that these sparkplugs can meet that wide of a heat range...", and forced them to increase the ceramic-to-metal joint surface so the plugs would over-cool when used at lower engine speeds. This makes them foul...

When Honda first faced this too-cold challenge in 1970 due to so many inexperienced riders riding sedately (think: bankers and lawyers who never rode before, but bought a "cool" 750 to putt to work), they needed a hotter-but-not-too-hot (like D7ES) solution. They also leaned out the carbs a bit and asked NGK to come up with a heat range between the too-hot D7ES and the D8ES. They made it the D8ES-L, with a longer tip to stick further into the chamber, and cool itself slightly less. This helped!

... then the US government so 'wisely' lowered the US speed limits to 55 MPH overnight in 1973... the CB750, which was the #1 bike on the roads at that time, suddenly found itself fouling the D8ES sparkplugs in 1000 hiway miles for lack of RPM to clean them off and heat them up. Even the D8ES-L was having troubles at this speed. To make a splash, NGK's parent company ND then created the X24ES-U, which was similar but with an even thinner tip, and less ceramic-to-metal contact in the body so it retained more heat. To set it apart from everyone else, they grooved the ground arm into a tiny "U" shape, hence the name. This latter one runs like an imaginary D7.6ES (or maybe 7.8) heatrange, and is perfect for all but flat-out racing apps. I have used them almost exclusively on my 750(s) since then. To control the slightly-hot tendency at 85+ MPH touring speeds (in places like Wyoming and Nevada) I use premium gas, while running midgrade the rest of the [high-country touring] time and low grade in town. They stay clean, start great, and some of the ones I have date to 1974, having been cleaned as many as 5 times!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2015, 05:49:03 PM »
Well there is a lot of info to the history of just the plugs alone! Cool! I would have never thought about any of those things its quite political! Any thoughts about these new iridium type of plugs, I believe the alloys is titanium and low amounts of ceramics around them aswell. I have read good things about them on these 750's...or should I maybe start with another set of the DR8EA-L plugs as there may be some minor fouling that occurred.

Anyone have a normal operating temperature range for these engines? Oil temp and then cylinder temp would be 2 different readings. This one I saw temps of up to 244 F  which seems pretty hot but its been awhile...used to run free air sleds way back and they would run around 250 F but different weapon right...

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2015, 06:04:31 PM »
Well there is a lot of info to the history of just the plugs alone! Cool! I would have never thought about any of those things its quite political! Any thoughts about these new iridium type of plugs, I believe the alloys is titanium and low amounts of ceramics around them aswell. I have read good things about them on these 750's...or should I maybe start with another set of the DR8EA-L plugs as there may be some minor fouling that occurred.

Anyone have a normal operating temperature range for these engines? Oil temp and then cylinder temp would be 2 different readings. This one I saw temps of up to 244 F  which seems pretty hot but its been awhile...used to run free air sleds way back and they would run around 250 F but different weapon right...

The oil temps on these bikes should never exceed 200  degrees (F) or something is awry.

One of the most common thing, if the bike otherwise seems OK, is: too-thin oil. Never use 10w(anything) oil in the 750. The least you should use is 15w40, and I recommend 20w50 in them, unless you're riding in the midst of freezing weather (then 15w40 is OK). I've written lots about this...

The next most common thing that makes hot oil is: uneven carbs and/or one cylinder missing (or weak). Too-rich carbs is the next-most common culprit. Interestingly enough, other than the lost power from a too-lean mix, these bikes run cooler with leaner carbs, probably due to the swirl-charge design.

The engine itself: I have measured 280-325 degrees with a 'gun' in the head area around the exhaust ports. The engine cases are closer to 180 degrees on a hot day, except underneath the points cover where it can be much hotter (well over 200 in there!).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2015, 07:24:12 PM »
Good information thanks! 15W 40 is in it now but I will dump it tomorrow and put 20w 50 in it. I want to flush it out anyway after running it for a short while but didn't think it required 20W50 so thanks for that! The weather where I am in the Okanagan BC, Canada is generally very hot and dry. Some places even have cactuses if you believe it!
I was able to get a refund on those bad coils from vintage cb750, I don't think they were happy about that but really now...if the brand new parts are defective that says a lot! New OEM from Honda will arrive Friday so that should sort out the spark issues now. The carbs should all be balanced and even now (mind you I do have pods on it, could have slight troubles from that).
This engine I rebuilt it in a way to return it to a functional stock engine. I had to swap cylinder sleeves, swap stock sized pistons around, new ring sets, hone bores, rebuilt valve train, guides/seals etc...timing chain new, tension rollers and guide...It took this bike (picked it up for $50) a second complete donor bike (completely bagged out with heavy rust) and a third engine to get this bike in one piece. It was also bent front forks, rim, tank...4 year project that is about 95% complete...a few other plans for it this winter.
When I first went to start it it fired up in 2 seconds and sounded real good for about a minute then it began to miss and I've been working on it since then. It will be a real good runner once all the bugs are worked out!!

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2015, 08:40:25 PM »
Your close enough of we get to a Winthrop ,WA ride... you could join us ;D
I spent many a summer as a kid in Penticton, Osoyoos Lake
Beautiful country.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2015, 07:18:40 AM »
Oh you guys do a ride in Winthrop WA, great!! You will have to let me know some details about that, probably not too far away. So you spent a lot of time in Penticton, yes it is beautiful there. I am about 1 hour north in Lake Country.
Penticton just opened up a new museum on lake Okanagan. It is done in the old steam ship S.S. Sicamous. If you haven't been there in a while things have developed and continue to do improvements on the water fronts throughout the Okanagan Valley.

West Is Best so I say!!  ;D


Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2015, 07:32:36 AM »
you'll have to say HI to 754 on the forum.  He's in Kelowna
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2015, 11:30:19 AM »
Good to hear people in my area are on here! Sooo I changed the oil on it this morning with a new filter, 20W 50...so that is in check now. I fired it up and it starts easy but takes a couple minutes to catch and soot hen out. One thing I notice is the #2&3 points seem to have some arcing between the contacts and 1&4 do not have any arcing. Tomorrow my new coils should be in so hope that resolves that issue. I am today going to play a little with the mixture screws to see if that has any effect...

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2015, 12:01:03 PM »
where exactly is it arcing? are the spacers in the correct order to prevent grounding?  condenser lead only touching its contact and nothing else?
have you properly prepped and gapped the points?
are they pitted?
what brand?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2015, 01:28:10 PM »
So they appear to be arcing between the contact surfaces as soon as the point opens up, Yes points are gapped @.012" within spec. It is again a brand new assembly...says made in Japan with a 3 star flower type logo....only 2&3 do it.
Being brand new surfaces they are not pitted but now have a dull grey film on the surface. I also have a secondary ground from the battery to the coil brackets just to be certain 100% ground.

There was no continuity between the contacts when opened up so the isolators should be fine, I haven't dismantled it as it is a new part but the static timing is set up fine. The advancer is also functional but I haven't set the dynamic timing up yet.

Maybe I better check the spacers like you said, I already had grief with new parts....

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2015, 01:40:50 PM »
Daiichi points.  Not the best option for our bikes.....
you'll need to read this.  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=59886.0
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2015, 02:12:33 PM »
Oh really!! I just dismantled 2&3 and did some checks and it seems to be isolated ok....I do recall that one of them was not perfectly square before I installed it so I squared it up the best I could and that was that....maybe I will have a look again at the stock points, I have them sitting here....I replaced components more as a preventative measure and these crappy parts create a whole new world of troubles don't they!!

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2015, 02:23:03 PM »
a few years ago i bought 4 complete used points plates for about $30.  All but one had TEC points.  One had ND points.  I used the best set of TEC points and have not looked back.  Id trust used TEC/ND points before i installed aftermarket Daiichi's
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2015, 06:40:42 AM »
Really, its that much worth it then for the tec parts....well I took a look at the old points plate and it looks like it has the points replaced on it once, they are not tec...same thing made in Japan with the three leaf logo. Anyway I pulled off the brand new points assembly from the bike, (advancer is smooth by the way), When I was comparing the 2 plates I could notice the difference in the fits big time! So I put the old plate back in with the new points assembly, now when I I do the static it is much easier to set everything up because it actually fits correctly. I did read up on the Hondaman point comparisons that he did and it is clear to me with what I have in front of me that this is also an issue here. So I hope I can get new oem points from Honda, there is no other way!

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2015, 07:13:10 AM »
I google'd the part number(in this ebay listing), and a bunch of other vendors came up.  Expect to pay ~$25US per point.
btw TEC= TOYO Electronics Co, so if you see TOYO listed as the brand, know that these are what you are looking for.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-NOS-CB750-500-550-750-Points-Pair-CB750A-CB500-/320742752012?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aadc1ff0c&vxp=mtr#ht_588wt_1037&rmvSB=true
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2015, 04:21:15 PM »
I just picked up brand new OEM coils from honda...was $244 tax in...inquired about TEC points....they are $37 each plus tax....wow! Okay so I think I will fight with the ones I have for now...that honda man ignition may be the trick for this bike though...will keep progress details coming....

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2015, 07:32:19 PM »
Allright....Soooooo all smiles now! Rode it around for the afternoon runs beautifully now!!
Here's the goods....so switched out the coils went to start it and was running like crap, put my fluke 179 on ohms and tested all the ignition leads etc, all good....I wanted to try the old condenser on 2&3 as that had some arcing present, I wired the old corroded condenser parallel with the brand new one and when I started it it was very smooth running...So....another brand new part that is not functional. Removed and replaced the new condenser and put the rusted ancient condenser on....nice and smooth running!
A couple other things I did before I took it out for the afternoon....I have pods on it and 1&4 plug readings were lean, I made aluminum inserts to go into the pods to deflect any airflow when riding, the mixture screws I adjusted to 2 turns out....and again I'm running drilled out jets...120 mains 42 pilots needle in stock position with pods and 4 into 1 with a modified Harley muffler with a very small baffle.
So after smiling and riding all afternoon she runs really awesome....things monitored were engine temp between the carbs and head would get pretty hot...up to 270' F  and this temperature would decrease if I rode it a gear lower and with the throttle opened up to basically exchange the air out of the hot motor, it seems to heat up when going down steep hills with throttle closed....
After I decided to pull the plugs to take a reading, seems like all 4 of them are almost identical...have a slight tan colour on parts of the electrode and insulator, but also have some whitish grey...to me this indicates a lean mixture.
Exhaust manifold temperatures were good aswell. Should I just open up the mixture screw another 1/4 to 1/2 turn and see if that does it? Pilot jet is good for up to 1/4 throttle opening correct? Would that bring down the engine temp? I am not sure what the normal temperature should be on this bike. I know too much heat and running too lean will bring the engine life down quickly so I want to get this right.

Also my fork seals are leaking...both brand new just changed and with a heavy fork oil to boot!!...what is going on with these cheap crappy parts that I have bought???

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2015, 08:25:54 PM »
Explain what you mean by drilled out jets....

Make NO mixture screw adjustments, yet.   You have not isolated the idle circuit, done a plug chop, and generated plug deposits that tell you idle circuit is lean. 

Your general riding deposits are just that.   Their color does not tell you WHERE in your throttle position needs an adjustment.

You need a new set of plugs, and complete a WOT plug chop, and adjust main jet if needed.   Richer or leaner....
Then comes 2/3 throttle chop, and make needle clip position changes if needed, richer or leaner.
1/4 throttle position chop for pilot jet....adjust as needed...
THEN....last, is idle, for air screw position.

16 plugs in all....or , clean them off with a torch, or soda blaster between uses.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2015, 08:36:52 AM »
Jets stock sizes are 105 main 35 pilot.
Chucked brass jets in my lathe, drilled to diameter .120 main and .042 pilot. to open up the bores, increasing fuel flow to accommodate the intake and exhaust changes. Same thing as buying a #120 main and a #42 pilot but this way is cheaper for me and I can take care of it right away. I know the jetting should be closer to where it needs to be.
Drilling the jets this way is the same way they are done on a dedicated production machine.

Ah I see what you are saying, to define if any changes needed I would have to do the plug chops with new plugs. Your right. I will have to do that soon then adjust in the required areas..

Offline flybox1

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2015, 11:34:36 AM »
Please be clear on your drilled jet diameters.
Is that .120"-or- 1.20mm , and .042" or  .42mm :o
Jets are all measured in mm.
It should be 1.20mm, but why drill, when accurate main jets are $4/ea  :o
Can u be positive your bit did not wander, and make a larger hole than the bit OD.
I know my hand is not that steady.
Either way, I think you're creating more issues for yourself with self drilled jets. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 11:37:23 AM by flybox1 »
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline JJmoto

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Re: 78 CB 750F Carb #2 No fuel??
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2015, 01:55:04 PM »
Certainly! All measurements are in metric. so 1.20mm and .042mm and coincide with #120 and #42 jet designation.
Yes I am certain that the through holes I drilled are concentric with the centreline of the spindle and the tailstock on my lathe. Most certainly a professional job done there and will have the same new finishes as buying brand new jets.
I also did all the machining on the heads, decked the surfaces and replaced cylinder sleeves. Not a problem!

The most troubles have been so far defective brand new components....I think next would be how fussy these carbs are to work on when cleaning them up...

It does appear that mixture screw is out too far making it run a little lean so I'm going to turn it in to allow less air and richen up the pilot circuit. Should be skoookum!   :D