Author Topic: Ape clutch  (Read 7878 times)

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Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2015, 08:29:49 am »
Hope so bwaller- it went so well 1st time out as well. What really gets me is I pulled off the track and stopped on the grass, when I went to put my foot down I found there was a dip in the field and, with the fact my boot was covered in oil, down I went. I actually fell off whilst stopped and made a mess of my new fairing which was freshly painted in Dick Mann colours - what a crap day!!! LOL
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2015, 12:10:34 pm »
Most important that you are OK, no damages.
I know how boring it is to get a severe failure after a big upgrade. My CB750 was modified/restored that costed like a new bike back in 83-84. I was thinking about the happiness to be OK. New 836 pistons (but not as good as the melted forged RC pistons), 4 rods, 2 guides and some valves to next season and good again. Now 30 years later restoring/upgrading same bike again with total cost of a new bike:)

I'm planning better crank/rods combo so this is extra interesting to know the root cause of.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2015, 01:22:50 pm »
Sorry to read about your misfortune. What strikes me is that I do have a Barnett clutch, extra plates and all. Very good, 3rd season now and very light operation.
 Cheers, Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2015, 02:32:36 pm »
That's interesting Rob - are the Barnett clutches different to the APE ones (I don't know who supplies APE). If so I would try a Barnett one as I used Barnett friction plates in my 350 K4 and thought it was very good.
Cheers,
Tony
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2015, 08:20:49 am »
Hi Tony, my bad. I do have the APE clutch kit in. I used Barnett for the dry clutch set-up. Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers, Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2015, 10:14:04 am »
PeWe - please be aware that I had a lightened and balanced crankshaft with Super rods fitted but it still went bang!
 

These rods right?

http://cbrzone.com/resources/sohc/superrods.jpg
Super Rod heavy duty rods for the Honda sohc 750.

Based on the oem design, they are beefier everywhere. We have seen every attempt to make a stronger oem style rod ever done, and the Super Rod is the best. Perfectly sized big end bores and bronze bushed pin holes. Brightly polished to help prevent oil cling. The strength comes from their bulk. At 372 grams, they are 70 grams heavier than Carrillos, but at a very attractive price.

Now with Super Rods, there is no reason for modified street bikes to chance using stock rods any longer.

#SRH750 $599.00

Are the Super Rods the same ones made/sold by Cycle X?
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2015, 12:49:24 pm »
It could've been a rod bolt but I haven't stripped it yet -if it's really bad I might never know what caused the "event" just what the resultant damage is. They were Cycle X Super rods fitted by Cycle X onto a crank which they had lightened and balanced. To be honest I have as yet no idea what actually let go in the 1st instance but, up until now, I can see a snapped rod and have found a piece from the bottom of one of the liners (sleeves).
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2015, 01:53:37 pm »
Thanks!
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2015, 01:35:45 am »
Did a rod bolt break?

Stripped it now and the rod cap is destroyed as is the rod. I did find a completely intact rod bolt in the bottom of the crankcase - could it have "backed off" and fell out causing all the damage? Cases, crankshaft, 1 rod, 1 piston and liner all destroyed. Can re-use the head and camshaft, clutch and probably the gearbox.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline bear

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2015, 01:47:17 am »
Tony,

Did you mention the crank and rods came to you assembled?

If the bolt was in tacked with the nut missing then we don't have to be a genius to work out what's happened. :(

If the nut was still on the thread then I guess the jury's still out. ???

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:18:59 am by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2015, 02:46:57 am »
The nut must be there... or at the crash site. Not tightened enough or nut failure? A missing nut miust have been visible when installing the crank.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 11:59:22 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline bear

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2015, 03:12:04 am »
The nut must be there... or at the crash site. Not tightened enough or nut failure? A missing nut miust have been visible when installing the crank.

If you have rod bolt in tacked floating around with no nut attached after rod failure it indicates poor assembly. ie bolt not stretched / tensioned to spec.

If the nut's there or not isn't relevant if it's not attached to the bolt.

"A missing nut must have been visible when installing the crank." That's a given.

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:24:10 am by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2015, 01:22:36 pm »
I deliberately did not comment on the bolt as I wanted to get some reaction from you guys and it seems that your thinking along the same lines as me. Out of interest I have attached a photo of the bolt.

I emailed the supplier on Wednesday but, as of yet, I haven't had any response.

On the upside - sometime ago I bought a "project" bike and the owner said he thought it had a big bore kit in it. I stripped it today and found it has an RC 1160 big bore kit complete with RC golden rods. Looks in good condition too, might just use it to allow me a little more time to buy the parts and rebuild my motor.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline bear

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2015, 03:10:45 am »


I emailed the supplier on Wednesday but, as of yet, I haven't had any response.


I suspect I know what the response will be Tony.
I hope I'm wrong.

Cheers,
Brian

The older I get the faster I was.

Offline bear

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2015, 03:18:25 am »

On the upside - sometime ago I bought a "project" bike and the owner said he thought it had a big bore kit in it. I stripped it today and found it has an RC 1160 big bore kit complete with RC golden rods. Looks in good condition too, might just use it to allow me a little more time to buy the parts and rebuild my motor.

I don't want to sound like a wet blanket mate, but I would be hesitant using old alloy rods in a road racing application.
They have a reputation for being able to handle big loads ie cylinder pressure but can suffer from fatigue from prolonged use.

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 03:20:04 am by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2015, 05:00:46 am »
I think your thinking the same as me bear but I feel you have to give people a chance to put their side forward. Think your also right about the rods but it is either race them or don't race at all at the moment.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2015, 05:06:01 am »
Sell the RC engine and buy new parts for a new engine based on you reusable parts. There are RC collectors out there as I have understood.
It must have a good cam too like RC315/327, right?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2015, 12:50:43 pm »
Haven't got the time to do that, don't forget I am in the UK and most tuning bits are in the States. Just getting a crank done means I have to find a (hopefully) good crank in the States, persuade the seller to send it direct to whoever is going to lighten and balance it, hope it is good when they check it, wait whilst they do it, then get it shipped over here. can take weeks or even more.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline bear

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2015, 04:48:48 pm »
Think your also right about the rods but it is either race them or don't race at all at the moment.

I can relate to that Tony, good luck with it mate.
Billy Benton aka Bill/BentON Racing might be able to help with the crank issue.

Just out of curiosity,  what engine capacity can you run in your class over there?

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 04:57:00 pm by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2015, 08:08:00 pm »

On the upside - sometime ago I bought a "project" bike and the owner said he thought it had a big bore kit in it. I stripped it today and found it has an RC 1160 big bore kit complete with RC golden rods. Looks in good condition too, might just use it to allow me a little more time to buy the parts and rebuild my motor.

I don't want to sound like a wet blanket mate, but I would be hesitant using old alloy rods in a road racing application.
They have a reputation for being able to handle big loads ie cylinder pressure but can suffer from fatigue from prolonged use.

Cheers,
Brian
Good advice.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2015, 02:16:29 am »
The class I ride in Bear is unlimited so no problem with a big bore kit.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline bear

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2015, 02:48:37 am »
The class I ride in Bear is unlimited so no problem with a big bore kit.


I was thinking more along the lines of a Hy-Vo.
I suspect you would be the first in the UK to race one over there. ;D

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2015, 06:28:09 am »
I don't know what Hy-Vo stands for but I race in the unlimited Classic class. For 4 strokes the cut off date is end of December 1972 (2 strokes is end of 1967).

There are 2 more CB750 based racers that race at one of my local clubs.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline gschuld

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2015, 07:39:57 am »
Please keep in mind that vintage big bore kits were never intended for road racing.  To put 70-73mm size sleeves in a factory cylinder bank the bore breaks right through the casting.  That both reduces strength in the cylinder bank and seriously affects the cooling capacity of the system.  So your engine is capable of producing more power but has much less cooling capacity than the original 736 design.  In drag racing this is not such a big deal as power is used for such a short time.  And on the street during normal riding there is little time at a high enough work load on a motor to heat it up enough to be a major problem, other than being stuck in traffic on a hot day.

But road racing puts a major workload on the motor for say 15-20 minutes.  That will severely stress the cooling capacity.  I have several big bore cylinders/ motors and have real concerns for street use , never mind road racing.

Big bore motors have been used for road racing, but it's not hard to blow one up.  Running methanol, for example, is likely a major reason the T-rex bikes have survived.  Methanol has a major cooling effect.

Things that would likely help a big bore motor in the cooling department:

Antifriction coated piston shirts.
Ceramic coated piston tops/combustion chambers.
A big honking oil cooler.
Use one of the billet big bore cylinder blocks that Mike Rieck custom designed and had made.  These blocks have MUCH more cooling capacity than even the factory 736 version at 1000cc plus bores.  Top shelf stuff, but unsure whether your class rules allow aftermarket cylinder blocks.  That is the way I would go if I wanted a big bore engine in a road racing application. 

Mechanically, I know Mike Rieck spent a ridiculous amount of time carefully preparing my golden rods for my 1000cc motor.  They were way out of balance and the rod bolts needed both replacement and modification to fit properly.  I'm quite certain that he would have loved to throw them in the display only antique pile and put a pair of bombproof Carrillo rods in.  Mike was kind enough to handle my insistence that the motor stay as old school as possible.  Thanks Mike.  If my motor was for anything resembling road race use and it's associated heat loading, Mike would have gotten his way in a second with the Carrillo rods.

I know you are in a time crunch, but I think you would be better served by at least getting a set of Carrillo or other high end set of steel rods for that motor.  I have a feeling it will save you time wise on both ends.  Old golden rods are easy to sell anyway.  Plus if you have a set of great rods on a nicely done crank, you are well on your way to swapping in a more sane piston/cylinder set set up for road race use.  Remember Pops Yoshimura was adamant about not going beyond 850cc on a road race engine.  We do more today, better technology and all, but something to consider with your old tech big bore.
 
I'd just hate to see you assemble a rare big bore motor that could let go on you in short order at the track.

I'd seriously consider something like an oil temp gauge hooked to an alarm buzzer if things get out of hand fast you might have more chance to pull back if need be.

George
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 12:13:49 pm by gschuld »

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2015, 11:49:27 am »
Good information in this thread! :)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967