Author Topic: Ape clutch  (Read 7856 times)

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Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2015, 12:11:16 pm »
Yes I agree but I haven't time (or finances) to prepare another engine before the next race meeting. If I want to race then I have to run with what I have.
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2015, 12:19:38 pm »
I fully understand.  Time is not on your side.  Think about an oil temp gauge or something that will allow you to keep close tabs on potential cooling issues.  I'd like to say try not to run it too hard, but not a easy thing to do when that guy is right in front of you and you'd much rather have him behind you... ;)  Seriously, best of luck getting the big old girl up and running strong. 

George

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2015, 01:22:16 pm »
Thanks George, it is fitted with an oil pressure gauge - I ll see if I can get an oil temperature gauge sorted (I'm sure I've seen a combined pressure and temp gauge available). Trouble is, the circuit I'm racing at is so tight and twisty, I hardly have time to look at the clocks !!! The good side of that is that I'm "off" the throttle a lot and all the straights are short.   
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2015, 02:35:19 pm »
I hear you about not being able to monitor the gauges, that's why I suggested some sort of loud buzzer like we have in the boating and small aircraft industry.  Boat owners, who have all the time in the world to monitor their gauges, never seem to notice their temps getting out of control(clogged cooling water intake, etc can make this happen pretty fast in a fresh water cooled boat engine) but we find that a loud buzzer ringing in your ear or a very bright "idiot light" makes it hard to ignore when your engine is well on it's way to a thermal meltdown if not dealt with "right away".  I'd suggest a buzzer(loud enough for you to hear it over the wailing engine and through your helmet) as that will not effect your driving where as a very bright warning light may well interrupt your vision. 

Anything you can do to improve oil cooling will likely help take some of the load off the air cooling of the cylinders/head and afford you some extra leeway.  If there was a reasonably simple way to tap in a cylinder head temp sender(there are systems that mount under each spark plug like a washer with a wire coming off it), like many small air cooled aircraft engines have, that would give you another data point regarding knowing where your limits are.  I'd think setting up for an oil temp sender with a pre-determined temp limit to trigger the buzzer and gauge would be the easiest to install and offer a reasonable piece of mind so you can concentrate of racing rather than your mechanicals.  This way, the engine tells you if it is past it's limits, at least the oil temp limits that you set.

So if your racing, and the buzzer goes off, you might have to back off a bit to allow your engine to cool back off to safe limits.  If the buzzer doesn't shut itself off within a reasonable amount of time, it may be a bad sign for your motor.  If the buzzer does go back off, you likely backed off enough that your oil temp went back into a safe range allowing you to continue on and if you feel brave you can ride the limits of the buzzer(safe max oil temp limit)... :o  Naturally, if the buzzer never makes noise, that would be fantastic... ;)

Perhaps this is WAY over thinking it, but I was considering something along these lines for myself anyway as we use this type of system all the time(in non motorcycle applications anyway).  I'm overly conservative regarding the idea of blowing up a motor when I might have been able to prevent it. 

These are just thoughts from someone with way more personal experience in non motorcycle industries.

George

 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 06:47:06 pm by gschuld »

Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #79 on: May 26, 2015, 01:00:57 am »
Cheers George, as a matter of interest what should the maximum oil temperature be (I haven't got a clue).
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #80 on: May 26, 2015, 01:09:47 am »
We entered our 3 hour Endurance demo last May 24th and had my bike fitted with a oil temperature gauge. Have equipped my bike with a oilcooler in the nose of the fairing. During the pitstops and the Red flag situations that occured the temperature went up to 104 degrees C.When racing it dropped back to 86 degrees C.

Rob
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Offline teebee67

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #81 on: May 26, 2015, 03:04:07 am »
Thanks Rob.
I'm only old on the outside.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #82 on: May 26, 2015, 03:14:05 am »
Speaking about temp.
Which temperature range is perfect for the CB750?  Is it 80 - 100°C in Oil tank?
I've seen a general temp range on Internet like 180-220°F  (82.2 - 104.4 °C)   

I have so far guessed that 90-100°C (194F-212°F) would be OK temp.  Not more than 105°C (221°F). I noticed the temperatures in my oil tank dipstick with temp gauge. I use synthetic oil so I'm sure the oil will be fine, but when will the pistons start to expand too much?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline gschuld

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2015, 03:54:03 am »
a HEAVILY stressed cb750(2 up, full of gear, barreling down the highway or stuck in traffic on a hot day) has been known to reach 250 degrees fahrenheit (121 Celcius) in oil temps.  This is( near the limit of most oils before they start breaking down chemically.  A good oil cooler system(with good airflow through it) can easily bring temps down 40 plus degrees Fahrenheit (22 degrees Celcius).  If you have an engine that even approaches 250 degrees F (121 Celcius) I would seriously consider using a synthetic oil which has a much higher heat capacity before breakdown as cooked oil obviously is no longer able to do it's job very well.

Rob's max temps of 104 Celcius (219 Fahrenheit) sounds pretty reasonable and within safe limits for both the oil and the engine.  Rob is running, if using the new project motor he just had on the dyno, a stock 736 motor with a stock cam which has maximum cooling capacity(fin area)/displacement(HP) ratio.  Did you install the 812 Yoshi piston/cylinders Rob.  Or was this a different motor?

My point is that if Rob is giving you a reference to what works for him based on what power(heat) his engine is putting out, you may want to consider how much more power(heat) your big bore engine will be putting out as it's logical that I will be producing much more power while having much less effective cylinder fin area and airflow through/around it to cool that extra power off.  So I would expect that trying to keep your temps under control would present much more of a challenge compared to Rob's situation.   

George



 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 06:54:43 am by gschuld »

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2015, 05:01:47 am »
A lot of people do not seem to realize that, like george said, two up crawling through traffic does not give sufficient airflow to cool the bike down. Like the ones racing the bike is nearly always have enough airflow, tho riding at speeds little will ever meet on streetrides. The reason for placing my cooler in the nose is all about efficiency. Highest air pressure and nearly unrestricted flow. I use a 10 row 115 m/m wide matrix cooler, so not the biggest of all.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2015, 05:42:21 am »
a HEAVILY stressed cb750(2 up, full of gear, barreling down the highway or stuck in traffic on a hot day) has been known to reach 250 degrees fahrenheit (121 Celcius) in oil temps.  This is( near the limit of most oils before they start breaking down chemically.  A good oil cooler system(with good airflow through it) can easily bring temps down 40 plus degrees Fahrenheit (4.5 degrees Celcius).  If you have an engine that even approaches 250 degrees F (121 Celcius) I would seriously consider using a synthetic oil which has a much higher heat capacity before breakdown as cooked oil obviously is no longer able to do it's job very well.

Rob's max temps of 104 Celcius (219 Fahrenheit) sounds pretty reasonable and within safe limits for both the oil and the engine.  Rob is running, if using the new project motor he just had on the dyno, a stock 736 motor with a stock cam which has maximum cooling capacity(fin area)/displacement(HP) ratio.  Did you install the 812 Yoshi piston/cylinders Rob.  Or was this a different motor?

My point is that if Rob is giving you a reference to what works for him based on what power(heat) his engine is putting out, you may want to consider how much more power(heat) your big bore engine will be putting out as it's logical that I will be producing much more power while having much less effective cylinder fin area and airflow through/around it to cool that extra power off.  So I would expect that trying to keep your temps under control would present much more of a challenge compared to Rob's situation.   

George

It actually drops a temp at 250F {121C} to 210F {99C}, which is a drop of 22 degrees C. The temperature 40 degrees F,  is equal to 4.5C,  A drop of 40F in overall temp is quite different... :D ;)
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2015, 05:49:06 am »
a HEAVILY stressed cb750(2 up, full of gear, barreling down the highway or stuck in traffic on a hot day) has been known to reach 250 degrees fahrenheit (121 Celcius) in oil temps.  This is( near the limit of most oils before they start breaking down chemically.  A good oil cooler system(with good airflow through it) can easily bring temps down 40 plus degrees Fahrenheit (4.5 degrees Celcius).  If you have an engine that even approaches 250 degrees F (121 Celcius) I would seriously consider using a synthetic oil which has a much higher heat capacity before breakdown as cooked oil obviously is no longer able to do it's job very well.

Rob's max temps of 104 Celcius (219 Fahrenheit) sounds pretty reasonable and within safe limits for both the oil and the engine.  Rob is running, if using the new project motor he just had on the dyno, a stock 736 motor with a stock cam which has maximum cooling capacity(fin area)/displacement(HP) ratio.  Did you install the 812 Yoshi piston/cylinders Rob.  Or was this a different motor?

My point is that if Rob is giving you a reference to what works for him based on what power(heat) his engine is putting out, you may want to consider how much more power(heat) your big bore engine will be putting out as it's logical that I will be producing much more power while having much less effective cylinder fin area and airflow through/around it to cool that extra power off.  So I would expect that trying to keep your temps under control would present much more of a challenge compared to Rob's situation.   

George

It actually drops a temp at 250F {121C} to 210F {99C}, which is a drop of 22 degrees C. The temperature 40 degrees F,  is equal to 4.5C,  A drop of 40F in overall temp is quite different... :D ;)


I thought that 4.5C seemed kinda small for a 40F span!  8)
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2015, 05:53:01 am »
Good to know more about temp range
I had high temp last year due to jetting problem. I was concerned when oil temp in oil tank reached 110°C (230°F) and more after only 20-30km driving not hard at all and ambient temp +10°C. Changed to synthetic oil and ordered an oil cooler just for sure (Setrab Pro Line 10 rows 163mm)  but the oil filter adaptor cooled me down when it might cause lower oil pressure in the top end.  I found that the air jet caused the high temp (VM29 carbs). Continue with the oil when I like how "oily" is when working with the engine. I can imagine how good the cam, crank and rod bearings will feel during high revs.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline gschuld

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2015, 06:57:12 am »
I corrected my post.  Sorry about that.  I wrote that early this morning and hadn't had my all important daily dose of caffeine yet.  Metric is clearly not my first language ;).

Rob, nice idea with the small duct into the oil cooler.  I have seen oil coolers mounted to the lower trees in front of the forks on cb750 road racers before, like the cycle x bike, but haven't seen one incorporated into a full fairing like you did.  Very smart you are.   ... 8)

George
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 07:02:28 am by gschuld »

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2015, 06:58:15 am »
Ride and race with a adaptor for over two decades and never ever experienced pressure drop due to the use of a adaptor. If constructed in the right way of course.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2015, 09:39:56 am »
Ride and race with a adaptor for over two decades and never ever experienced pressure drop due to the use of a adaptor. If constructed in the right way of course.
Something like this? I got it in an oily plastic bag for 30 years ago. Setrab cooler is new, 1 year ago.
This thread has some information about various important things  ;)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 09:44:09 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2015, 11:01:21 am »
Nothing wrong with these adaptors. This one is for the oem filter cover. I usually make them for the spin-on filters.
Tip, mount the cooler up side down, meaning the connectors on top, keeps the cooler filled with oil after engine stops.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #92 on: May 26, 2015, 11:27:36 am »
Nothing wrong with these adaptors. This one is for the oem filter cover. I usually make them for the spin-on filters.
Tip, mount the cooler up side down, meaning the connectors on top, keeps the cooler filled with oil after engine stops.

OK, thats why most coolers are mounted upside down. I should have understood why... I know now, thanks.
You use thermostat too? Or it has less importance when the bike is not driven in very cold weather?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ape clutch
« Reply #93 on: May 26, 2015, 12:00:30 pm »
No thermostat. Though I do use a digital temp gauge. The racers are always carefully warmed up.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.