Author Topic: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping  (Read 5482 times)

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Offline playbike

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CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« on: April 14, 2015, 11:54:26 AM »
Hi! Here's my problem. Charging voltage of my CB750 K2 is jumping from 12V to 15V, measured from the battery terminals. At 1000 RPM the voltage is around 12V. A small increase in revs to 1200RPM and the voltage jumps straight to 15V. After some more revs the voltage drops back to 12V. Some more revs and voltage jumps again straight to 15V. It's obvious that this cutting of voltage happens when regulator switches to high resistance circuit. But why does it happen so suddenly and periodically at different revs?
Any ideas where to start searching for the solution?

I know, I have the SOHC charging troubleshoot procedure at hand but haven't had time to dive in to this yet.. Sorry!

Everything used to work last summer. During winter I switched to CREE LED head bulb and got a new fuse holder...

Offline mystic_1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 11:59:17 AM »
Sounds like a problem with the regulator itself.  Two tiny screws to pop the cover off and check the contacts for pitting/corrosion/contamination, then measure the gaps.

You could also theoretically run the bike with the regulator's cover off so that you can observe the action of the contact arm as you rev the bike and observe voltage changes.

That may give you some leads, at least.

mystic_1
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2015, 12:14:25 PM »
What does the headlight do for reaction when you rev the engine? Does it 'jump' too when it becomes brighter or gradually? Reason I ask: some non-automotive DMMs give funny readings.
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Offline playbike

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 12:16:49 PM »
Sorry, forgot to mention that I have done exactly what you recommended. The regulator contacts are not visibly pitted/corroded. The gaps are correctly set. But the contact arm and contact points do not line up properly. The contact points are misaligned by half of their diameter.. I have opened up the regulator a few years ago and I can't remember if those points were misaligned then. The arm moves against spring tension as it should.

The headlight and instrument lights brighten accordind to the voltage change.


Offline mihai.i

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 12:19:47 PM »
I had the same issue. Turn out that the previous owner conected the wrong way the regulator terminals with the black, white and green wires and fried it! (mismatch the green with the black wire)
So, also check:
1.the regulator connections: Black with I terminal conector, White with F terminal conector, Green with E terminal conector.
2. regulator resistance betwen the three contacts terminal I,F and E:
points contact up:
                    I-F 3,2 ohm
                    I-E 35,8 ohm
                    E-F 39,2 ohm
points contact down:
                      I-F 10 ohm
                      I-E 35,8 ohm
                      E-F 46 ohm
no contact (midle):
                      I-F 10 ohm;
                      I-E 35,8 ohm
                      E-F 46,1 ohm
These are aproximatly values for my regulator.

You can find more on this manual(pages 14-15):
http://www.xl250k3.com/library/Honda-Electrical-Manual.pdf

« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 12:24:08 PM by mihai.i »
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2015, 09:10:19 PM »
My opinion is that the charging system and regulator are fine.....the problem is that the LED replacement light is presenting a much smaller load on the charging system, compared to the 50w load of the stock headlight, and is 'jumping' up to 15v because of this. If you put back the stock headlight maybe it would behave normally. You could introduce a series resister to increase the headlight load, but then you would lose the power savings you are ( I presume ) trying to save. Maybe need a solid state regulator to fix the problem of a LED headlight......
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2015, 12:06:40 PM »
Oops, sorry, I missed that there's a Led light involved. My question above was ment how does a conventional or H4 lamp react when the engine is revved.
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mystic_1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2015, 01:36:44 PM »
If there's less load on the system, wouldn't the regulator try to drop into "do not charge" mode instead of "charge as much as possible" mode?

mystic_1
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 10:57:01 PM »
Mystic.... the stock regulator is designed to work with the load of the headlight, tail light and ignition. It needs that load ( amperage ) passing thru' the reg. relay to know when to switch from full charge mode to low charge mode. With the headlight load effectively removed ( LED light ).... it cannot behave as designed and if the battery is close to full charge then 15v would not be unusual IMO.
Also consider that the stock charging system was designed way before LED's were available and had to deal with 'analog' loads only ;)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline playbike

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 12:31:42 AM »
Thanks alot for everyone's input! Hopefully I'll find some time today and check the charging system first with conventional H4 bulb. I switched to LED for more brightness. And it worked but I guess I'll have to update to solid state regulator. If I will keep my LED light I mean. We'll see...

Offline mystic_1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 02:51:01 AM »
So, then why doesn't my regulator do this when I turn my headlight off?

mystic_1
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
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My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline mihai.i

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 05:32:44 AM »
Maybe you got different voltage values (lower) on the black cable that comes from the positive to the I terminal connector of the regulator, than the values from the battery terminals, and this determine you regulator the get more power from the alternator.

I qoute from the learnings of@TwoTired

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 05:37:39 AM by mihai.i »
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Offline playbike

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 06:53:07 AM »
Got it figured out! Culprit was the LED bulb. The load was so much smaller, 15W vs. 55W, that charging voltage jumped up and down. Put back my old halogen and everything works great. Thanks for your replies! A great forum.  :)

Offline evanphi

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2015, 07:05:53 AM »
Got it figured out! Culprit was the LED bulb. The load was so much smaller, 15W vs. 55W, that charging voltage jumped up and down. Put back my old halogen and everything works great. Thanks for your replies! A great forum.  :)

Will you be getting a solid state reg/rec to try the LED? I'm interested in an LED headlamp, and I already have the solid state reg/rec, but I don't want to get into high voltage issues.
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2015, 04:32:55 PM »
Part of what concerned me about the description of the symptoms is the fact that as RPM rose, the voltage would increase to max, then fall to min, then rise back to max again.  I don't think even with the reduced load that there should be such a dramatic double-peak in the voltage. 

The charging system chart from this very site lists two different amperage columns for lights-on and lights-off operation, and lights-off represents the ultimate case of "reduced load from headlight", yet the chart has a single column for output voltage for both cases.  Also, as I mentioned above my charging system performs very similarly whether the headlight is on or off.  I don't see the dramatic and sudden voltage swings described here when my headlight is off.

It just seems odd.


mystic_1
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2015, 06:32:48 PM »
Good post Mystic... and yes the charging system would perform as per your dia. with the h/l off, but then introduce a LED h/l load and the reg. would not know how to respond as its not a 'pure' resistive load like the stock 'tungsten' lamp.

The OP said all is normal when he put the stock h/l back on the bike, so the LED set-up does not suit the stock regulator.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:36:14 PM by Spanner 1 »
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2015, 08:18:38 PM »
It's definitely a fine balancing act.  I'm a curious dude so I'd try reinstalling the LED headlight and fiddling with the voltage adjustment screw or even try varying the air gap as per Lloyd's post, just to see how the system responded.  Wouldn't surprise me if desired behavior could be restored.

mystic_1
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- John Augustus Shedd

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Offline playbike

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2015, 10:22:24 AM »
I installed an analog voltage meter to observe charging voltage while riding. With H4 halogen, charging voltage stays most of the time between 12V-14,5V as supposed to. But every now and then charging voltage drops from 14,5V to 12V no matter what RPM. After a moment voltage comes gradually back to 14,5V and stays there.
Considering this I'm leaning towards a bad battery... I checked the voltage with headlight off. Headlight off the voltage jumps just like it did with LED bulb.

Offline playbike

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Re: CB750 K2 charging voltage jumping
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 10:37:24 AM »
I finally found the time to dig into this problem properly. Found out that my v.regulator core gap was on the tight side (0,55mm). This caused the regulator to switch circuit too early and too eagerly. Hence the sudden voltage drop. Adjusted core gap to 0,85mm and charging voltage is now consistent!
So I would probably be able to use the LED bulb if wanted by adjusting the core gap and points spring tension according to lower load on the electrical system.
Feels good to have this sorted out!