Author Topic: engine kicks over hard (turns hard) (Read 4375 times)

Don R · « **on:** May 11, 2015, 07:06:38 PM »

It's the 1124 motor, I did post last year but sat it aside for a while. it wouldn't kick over when I got it. I assumed it had to do with the stroker and ARD mag. They reportedly roller started it.

I took it apart, checked the bearings and crank, it turned over OK until I replaced all the kick start parts and put in the clutch. Now it turns hard, I could move it if I put a crescent wrench on the bottom of the kicker and used both hands but something got tight.
I'm wondering about the oil pump since I didn't take it apart or remember turning it by hand. The screen was intact but there were bits of rubber stuck to the screen from cylinder o rings falling out. doesn't the oil pump drive also drive the ratchet for the kicker?

madmtnmotors · « **Reply #1 on:** May 11, 2015, 07:18:49 PM »

What kind of clutch? Is it the early style clutch or the later style? If the later style (i.e. taller stack) is used with the early style (shorter stack) clutch cover (the inner engine case cover) it will interfere with the clutch hub. The early style clutch cover has extra material on one of the three screw bosses for the outer cover. This extra material protrudes about another 1/4" into the case and will "pin" the clutch hub in place. Look at the screw boss on the inside of the cover down by the kickstarter and make sure it's not hitting the clutch hub. I used an early style clutch cover on my K8 cause it was chrome and purty, except the engine would not turn after the swap. Fortunately this was the only mod I had done at the time so it was pretty easy to figure out. If I hadn't seen it I would not have believed it. The extra material can be ground down to clear the hub.

This may also be an issue if an early clutch is retrofitted with the "extra disk" upgrade.

dragracer · « **Reply #2 on:** May 11, 2015, 08:07:43 PM »

Yeap, what Wilbur said!!!!!!!!!

scottly · « **Reply #3 on:** May 11, 2015, 10:06:03 PM »

The kick starter gearing is an over-drive, so whatever torque required to turn the crank is multiplied at the kick start lever; not sure of the ratio. If the motor takes more torque at the crank to turn with the clutch cover installed, then look for interference as Wilbur mentioned. If that is not the problem, try the kicker with the spark plugs removed. My high compression 836 is Very hard to kick, and it seems it gets harder every day, but that may be due to the age of the guy doing the kicking.

dragracer · « **Reply #4 on:** May 11, 2015, 10:48:48 PM »

Can you turn the engine over with a wrench on the rotor?? Like Wilbur, I put a different cover on my motor the last time I rebuilt it because I misplaced the shiny chrome cover. I could turn it over til I put the clutches in and the cover on. Once I inspected the cover, I saw marks on the inside and realized it was rubbing on the pressure plate. As Wilbur did, I ground down the high spot and it worked okay to kick the motor over with the usual effort. I finally found my original cover and swapped it out.

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2015, 12:14:57 AM »

Yeh, what they said!

If it's all good inside, it takes max effort to kick it over. Stock carbs with no fuel enricheners like smooth bores etc, you can forget cranking cold! Frank reminded me of how to do it, squirt bottle with race fuel, 1-2 quick sprays in intakes.....first kick cold!

Makes a huge difference. Seen large guys only move lever from one compression stroke to next! They will/can embarrass you!

Bill

NalleyRacing · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2015, 05:40:25 AM »

Quote from: Bill/BentON Racing on May 12, 2015, 12:14:57 AM

Yeh, what they said! If it's all good inside, it takes max effort to kick it over. Stock carbs with no fuel enricheners like smooth bores etc, you can forget cranking cold! Frank reminded me of how to do it, squirt bottle with race fuel, 1-2 quick sprays in intakes.....first kick cold! Makes a huge difference. Seen large guys only move lever from one compression stroke to next! They will/can embarrass you! Bill

And dont use your tennis shoes

Don R · « **Reply #7 on:** May 12, 2015, 07:29:09 PM »

I could have switched the cover, that's where I'll begin, the weird part is the kicker was tight before but I replaced all the kicker parts and now the entire motor is. I'll check it out and report back. It is a K2 engine.

I haven't put it back in the frame yet and it's on the engine stand now. I think it's the early clutch I remember thinking it was flimsy looking.

scottly · « **Reply #8 on:** May 12, 2015, 07:43:10 PM »

Quote from: Bill/BentON Racing on May 12, 2015, 12:14:57 AM

Seen large guys only move lever from one compression stroke to next!

That's about all I can get, at least until the motor fires.

1080 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 12, 2015, 08:27:44 PM »

I had to jump with all my weight to get the 1080 started.
I re-postioned my kicker starter a few notches (CCW) so when open I could stand on it comfortably.

Don R · « **Reply #10 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:04:05 PM »

Nope, clutch is removed down to the basket, no improvement. i removed the starter drive in case it had something to do with the busa starter. I coated everything with assembly lube and keep the cylinders oiled. I have the feeling I'm going to be the big dummy when I figure it out.
The next item I installed is the starter drive with the dyno removed. It comes off next.

scottly · « **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:18:47 PM »

Don, try measuring with a torque wrench on the alternator rotor bolt.

Don R · « **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:55:15 PM »

Thanks I will tomorrow, the oil pump is free and pumping oil. I removed the dyno bolt but haven't found the puller bolt yet.
When I was 16 I built a 265 chevy power pack engine, between me and my helpers we got a bearing insert in with the tab not in the notch. It reminds me of that. Scarred for life I guess.
It seemed to rotate OK as I put it together, I noticed the tightness after the clutch and starter drives went in. Now I wonder all kinds of things. Hondabond squeezed into a crank bearing? OH MY.

scottly · « **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2015, 10:06:45 PM »

I meant use the torque wrench with the dyno bolt and rotor installed; IIRC, the torque to turn the crank should be about 15-20 ft/lbs??
A buddy once swapped a later cam into a 265 in his '55 "Gonad" (Nomad), and had oiling problems; the later cam lacked an oil groove in one journal or something?

Don R · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2015, 10:58:10 PM »

I understood that, I wanted to remove the dyno hub as a check because before it went on, the motor seemed to turn ok. I was thinking I'd checked it, then put on the hub, clutch basket and kickstart mechanism.
While timing the cam, I rotated that thing plenty and it was easy. something changed. I have a device that can pressurize the oil system before starting it. I use it on all the engines that have been sitting a while. I may try that for lack of a better idea. It has compression when I put in the plugs.

madmtnmotors · « **Reply #15 on:** May 13, 2015, 04:04:04 AM »

Quote from: Don R on May 12, 2015, 10:58:10 PM

I rotated that thing plenty and it was easy. Then put on the hub, clutch basket and kickstart mechanism.
Something changed.

That description is what made me think of the clutch cover interference. I had to put everything I had into the kicker and it would just barely budge when I made my blunder.

Hope you get it sorted and are ripping 1320's soon!

Don R · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2015, 09:26:19 AM »

I appreciate the suggestions. The primary broke in the past or something got into it, there are gouges on the top of the oil pump and inside the cases. If I end up splitting the cases again, I'm putting in a backcut transmission I got a while back.

jonnycakes · « **Reply #17 on:** May 13, 2015, 10:17:57 AM »

I had a buddy who had a chrome clutch cover he just had to use. He bought a couple of engines but they were "locked up" after he put this cover on. Put a stock cover back on and presto.....

Don R · « **Reply #18 on:** May 13, 2015, 09:17:36 PM »

I chuckled at that, I hope he can too. I have a chrome one but unfortunately it's the one that has only 9 holes in it.

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2015, 03:42:54 PM »

Well I'll trade you 3 10 hole ones? K

Don R · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2015, 06:35:09 PM »

Thanks Bill but I'll leave it there where it was new..
The clutch is out, the motor turns easy with the plugs out until it hits a tight spot then it takes 40 ft lbs to rotate it. It chatters as it turns so it appears the top end has to come back off. I hate to think it's a bent ring, it went together easy. I just inspected it, took out the loose cylinder O rings and put it back together.

scottly · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2015, 06:39:04 PM »

40 ft/pounds at the crank? Try backing the valve adjusters off..

Don R · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2015, 07:00:13 PM »

That's the next logical thing to try. They have to come off anyway if I pull the head. It's an engle cam.

News:

Author Topic: engine kicks over hard (turns hard) (Read 4375 times)