Topic: Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafe Projects

[Restoration Fan]

Ron,

How much longer is the CBR1000 stem than the 550 stem?  It may be just as easy to have the CBR1000 stem pressed out and machined down with the threads extended as needed, and then re-pressed into the CBR1000 bottom triple tree.

That might end up being the best possibility.  The CBR1000 stem is about 1/4 inch longer than the one for the 550.

[calj737]

Press the CBR stem back, and then trim it. I did something similar on my 550 with a 750 custom triple from Joker. Stem was .780 too long.

[calj737]

Finding the conversion bearings is your next trick!

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Check out All Balls. With their conversion program it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Restoration Fan]

Check out All Balls. With their conversion program it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Yep.  Their web site made that part really easy.  I found the top & bottom conversion kits pretty easily.

I'm thinking we may be able to just remove the top 1/4" and extend those threads on down the next 1/4" to replace the missing threads.

Of course, this is all on the 550, which is the second build.  I'm cleaning carbs tonight and hoping to get the 500 engine painted by Wednesday or Thursday and back into the frame.  I also have to get a steel ball to replace the #17 part shown in the photo below for the clutch.

[Stev-o]

Hey Ron......You didnt say if you found one, but here is a #10 ball...

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-96211-10000.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwrdetBRCJg92s44SB77IBEiQAEIWmVRnel_MzCPhZFmT42S2fYAvbWAJHbzYbZ431vnFKKEoaAors8P8HAQ

[Restoration Fan]

Thanks.  I just ordered 5 of them.  I had not found any prior to that.

[Desert Dan]

For the clutch actuator ball, I couldn't bring myself to spend a dollar plus shipping on a single ball bearing. What I did is went to the hardware store and bought about 10 of them ( i believe they are 5/16?) for 50 cents then I hardened each one by heating them with a torch until they were cherry red then dropping them in a cap of oil. If you don't temper the hardware store ball bearing it will fuse itself to the shift rod. It's too late for my trick to save you some dough but I figure someone else reading your build thread might be able to use it.

[Restoration Fan]

So I finally had some time to do a bit of work on the bikes this weekend. 
On the 500, I put some knee indentations into the tank and then applied a coat of Bondo to smooth it out.  After sanding, there are a couple of low spots on each side so it'll need another skim coat to finish it out.  There's vinegar soaking on the inside of the tank right now so I'll probably get to that on Monday for the second coat, after the vinegar has had a chance to clean out some of the flash rust on the interior.

[Restoration Fan]

But on the 550, I was able to mock up the rear and front ends.  Here's what I found with the CBR front & rear ends, in case someone else wants to do this.

On the front end, All Ballz makes a CBR to 550 conversion bearing so I THINK I will be able to just plug and play the entire CBR1000RR front end into the 550 neck, using the top & bottom conversion bearing sets.  Those have been ordered so I won't know for sure until they arrive.

On the rear end, here are the measurements I found with respect to the CBR600RR swing arm vs the 550 swing arm.  Measuring from the swing arm bolt to the front and rear of the axle pass-through hole on the 550 swing arm measures 17 1/8" to the front of the hole and 19" to the rear of the hole.  Also, the 550 swingarm bolt is a 14mm bolt.

The CBR swingarm bolt is a 17mm thickness bolt so it won't fit inside the factory holes in the frame. BUT, the CBR bolt uses a spacer rod that is about 80% of the width of the swingarm and has 2 other spacers as well.  I removed those spacers and slid the standard 550's 14mm swingarm bolt through those spacers and then I was able to mount the CBR swing arm onto the frame for mock-up purposes.  That results in a measurement of 19 1/2" to the front of the axle pass-through hole and 21 3/4" to the rear of that hole.  The spacers that came with the CBR rear end actually make the tire seem like it's going to work.

I work at a large engineering firm, so I'm going to have some of my engineer buddies help me determine if the 14mm bolt, wrapped by the spacer would be strong enough to support the CBR's added few inches of length.  If it does, I'll probably have a new spacer milled that takes up most of that extra 3mm of diameter so it's more of a snug fit around the 14mm bolt.  If not, I'll have a machine shop widen the 14mm holes out to accommodate the 17mm bolt.



However, I'm less enthused about the mono-shock after mocking it up onto the swing-arm.  I'm not sure it's going to work on the smaller 550 frame vs the CBR frame.  I would definitely have to have something fab'ed up to handle the shock mount onto the frame anyway but I moved it around in a few different areas and I'm just not convinced it's going to work for sure right now.

[RAFster122s]

It is too long and sourcing a shorter one just runs into all kinds of variables to consider.
I think that the dual shocks are classic and much easier to tune as well as providing a wealth of choices.

I wondered as I read the thread why no one suggested the All Balls kit if you had the space in the steering neck.
Just lots of suggestions to spend lots of money.

Some of the things your son would like is the added legs the 650 cam adds to the 550 if you can find one for a reasonable price.  Check out your cam cover for any eccentric wearing of the rocker shafts.  This was a common problem the 77-78 pinned longer rocker shafts fixed.

A good upright position really is good for longer distance and comfort. Less weight on the wrists to lessen issues with carpal tunnel or tendonitis as well which the leaning forward position can irritate and contribute to some issues later. Some people don't have problems, but,  if you develop it you really don't want your bike to make it worse.

Look at a Buell headlight bucket that's steel, large enough for a good motorcycle H4 7" headlamp.  Even the Buell Blast had a decent bucket.  FunJimmy's Cafe Interceptor used one.
Added thing is they are inexpensive.  Careful buying master cylinder as there are fakes out there.  Sometimes buying a used one and rebuilding it can be a good way to go.
If you don't have the cbr MC.

Good luck with the 500 build.  May wish to consider remote reservoir MC for it with dual discs.
Electronic tach eliminates several issues and cleans up cables...
not sure that's a plan for the 500, but would be for 550. Unless you are going with the aftermarket speedo cluster for it as well.

[Restoration Fan]

Thanks, RAF for all the suggestions.

The CBR front end is a working front end that comes complete with the MC already on it and working, for that matter, it works quite well.  I'm thinking that it really will be as simple as the All Ballz conversion kit to make it work.  The extra 1/4" difference in height may mean that I have to cut off that much from the top of the tube and extend the threads down an extra 1/4" but that seems a much easier solution than changing out tower rods.

The more I looked at the back end yesterday, the quicker I came to the conclusion that the mono-shock from the CBR just wasn't going to be an option.  First, I didn't really care for the look so much but mainly the height of it was just untenable.  So I'll have to figure out a way to make the dual shocks work with that aluminum swingarm.

On the 500, I'm going to try and stay with the stock single disc up front so that I don't have to dump much money into it.  It's just going to be a "learn to ride" bike for him to get some early seat time after he takes his MSF class and then we're going to sell it.  It's also going to be my experimentation bike that I'll use for determining how we really want to do the seat pan, battery tray and wiring.  If we don't get it perfect on the 500, we can use the lessons learned on Logan's 550.

[rb550four]

I don't know much about this conversion ,  would it be possible to have 1/4 spacer made to take up the slack and leave the
tree it's original size? Maybe a stupid idea , just throwing it out there.

[Restoration Fan]

rb,
It looks like it's just as simple as ordering the All Balls conversion kit.  Essentially, they just provide a different sized race and ball bearings that allow you to use the existing CBR1000RR tree, including the stem and it makes it fit within the frame neck you have.  On the All Balls site, there's a Fork Conversions menu link on the top of the page.  You put in the frame and then choose the new triple tree stem.  It then gives you the All Balls top and bottom bearings kit #'s.

[RAFster122s]

If you have a 1/4 inch of the stem unthreaded above the top tree then a bearing sield and spacer to properly torque the stem and load the bearings is needed. The nut won't cover the races most likely,  so a cover is needed.
So, have something turned out of aluminum,  check the fit and then have it anodized.  Have two made since it isn't going to cost a lot more for the 2nd. Then you can have a spare for another build or one to sell.

RB's idea is a good one, easier and likely cheaper and you don't have to have the triple tree's hardened stem cut additional threads.

[Restoration Fan]

OK, so I spoke with a civil engineer and a mechanical engineer.   I'll try to summarize what they said regarding the swing arm and using the 14mm bolt vs the 17mm bolt.

Both said that if I were going to use a mono-shock solution that they would recommend the 17mm bolt.  They both also said that, by going with a dual shock solution with the CBR swingarm, the 14mm would probably be fine.  They explained that the greatest concern with the bolt would be "shear force" applied downward on the inside of the frame where the swingarm and the frame meet on both sides.  And they also emphasized that the engineers for Honda chose a 17mm bolt for a reason...although they concede that the mono-shock would certainly be a factor in that decision.

So, in essence, I have decided to have the 14mm holes in the frame drilled out to accommodate the 17mm bolt that came with the CBR rear end.  All three of us (the engineers and me) all believe that the 17mm bolt gives the largest safety margin to ensure that there's no issue with tensile strength and shear force.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Good decision.  Why leave it to chance?

[RAFster122s]

I am not a mechanical engineer but the engineering degree I have and materials class and metals study taught me enough to know that you would be fine with the 14, but you are going to have extra protection from the 17. The issue is you are strengthening the bolt but haven't strengthened the frame to handle the load the of the rear arm's increased strength. So, without adding gussets and crossbrace you are not able to use the improvement. That's my thoughts on it.

[Restoration Fan]

I am not a mechanical engineer but the engineering degree I have and materials class and metals study taught me enough to know that you would be fine with the 14, but you are going to have extra protection from the 17. The issue is you are strengthening the bolt but haven't strengthened the frame to handle the load the of the rear arm's increased strength. So, without adding gussets and crossbrace you are not able to use the improvement. That's my thoughts on it.

Oops, I left out that part.  The civil engineer also suggested that I have them area around where the 17mm hole is created strengthened...most likely by having extra supporting metal welded around the new hole to help provide support stability to lessen the chances of the frame cracking or splitting there.

[calj737]

Not to muddy the waters, Ron, but the whole point of the bushing inside the pivot tube is to disperse the shear force across the length of the bolt. Using new, better quality steel/alloy instead also improves the strength of these bolts.

As for 14/17mm what you have overlooked in your analysis is the original bike they are both from. The CBR needed the 17 due to its size, weight, and power ranges created by a 1,000cc motor. That motor creates a ton more shear stress than our puny little 40HP motors. And the point of shear is directly upon the bolt at the end of the swing arm tube, not beyond the frame. This where the live load, and dynamic load occur in greatest concentration.

The application of the bolt within the entire system is equally important to its material capabilities in the abstract.

My analysis: you're wicked over-thinking it from a "why" perspective. My opinion: decide which bolt you want use from a work involved perspective (sleeving the 14 into the CBR arm) or (enlarging the frame to fit the 17).

Lastly, if this particular bike is going to be reduced to a solo rider only, this further reduces the stress on the bolt in question. The CBR was designed to accommodate maximum passenger weight.

Looking forward to seeing you move right along now!

[Restoration Fan]

I love days like today.  I had all day to ride and work on bikes.

I got the idle air control valve replaced and the check engine light extinguished on my Jeep. 

Then, I went and bought 5 gallons of Cleaning Strength White Vinegar and put as much of it as I could into the 500 tank.  After soaking most of the day, I just cleaned out the vinegar and washed out the tank....purrty and clean on the inside now.  So, I put some Marvel Mystery Oil in the tank, put the gas cap on and sloshed it around so that it coated all of the interior of the tank...hopefully, that will stop any flash rust until I can get it painted.  Once I do that, I'll put some gas in it to stop the rust.

I also put another skim layer of Bondo on that tank, as well as the extra 750 tank I have for Stella.  This afternoon, I sanded both of those down and they're ready for primer.  Once I've had a chance to watch a bit of NFL pre-season football tonight, I'll go lay down a coat of primer on both tanks.

I also got the races removed from both the 500 and the 550 frames.  Then I called the Cherokee County Sheriff's office and had an officer come out and perform the VIN verification checks on both frames.  It was a lady deputy and she looked at the frames, the engines and all of the parts stacked up around my work room and said, "So all of these are going to someday be 2 motorcycles?" and smiled.  I told her, "Yeah, I could make both of them into rollers in a matter of about 10 minutes and you'd get the idea of what they will begin to look like."  So she said, "why haven't you already done that then?"

To which I replied, "Because those parts were purchased separately from those frames.  If either of those frames came back as having issues, then all I lose is the frame.  If I have the parts in the frame, then you have to seize the frame and I have to argue with you about whether I get to keep the parts or not....this way, there's no doubt."  She laughed and said, "Great point.  But both of them came back clean.  You're good to go."

Finally, I got some more cleaning done on the 500 motor and got it closer to being ready for paint.  I figure I have another hour or two of prep work to get it perfect before I lay the primer coat down on it as well.

Also, did a bit of work on Stella today and then took her for about a 15 minute ride just to make sure she's running well.  She performed beautifully and I brought her home with a great big smile on my face.  Tomorrow morning, I'm going to take her out a bit longer ride.

[AintNoEasyWay]

Great update. Happy to hear Stella is able to get some attention now too. Safe riding today!

[calj737]

Only 15'? Shame on you! She deserves at least an hour after all her fuss during assembly. Signs of a bike that wants to be ridden 

[Restoration Fan]

Only 15'? Shame on you! She deserves at least an hour after all her fuss during assembly. Signs of a bike that wants to be ridden 

LOL, well I brought her home to adjust the clutch because it still didn't feel quite right.  But I made up for it this morning and took her out for about a 20 mile ride.  That's the longest I have gone on her so far and I'm going to do the same again this evening.  After which, I will have about 60 miles on her and I'm going to do an oil change and move to Bel-Ray 20W50 oil.  (*hoping I can get yet another oil debate going *)

I did get the first coats of primer on the tanks last night as well.  There really is no substitute for a layer of white or gray primer to point out the imperfections for you.  I'm about to take the boys out for morning brunch and then come home to do some more sanding, filler work and primer yet again. 

All Balls bearings scheduled to arrive tomorrow so if I can get the tank painted today as well, then we should have a roller with an engine in it by Tuesday or Wednesday.

[calj737]

Mist it with guide coat, Ron. That's the cats pajamas for perfect surfacing.