Topic: 1972 CB500 Project. Am I in over my head?

[kasper.tyler]

I was planning to work on this throughout the day, but I got called for a last minute interview for a job, so I had to cut the day short. At any rate, here's my little update.

I got the shed a little more organized so I can navigate it better. Also sprayed the hell out of it for bugs, cause I don't have time for that nonsense.



This is how we left things on Monday, we were both exhausted from getting the engine off the frame that we didn't bother trying to organize too much.



Every single screw on top of the motor was stripped out and wouldn't let any screwdriver/drill bit grab onto it. I made some cuts in the top of some of the screws with a dremel to help me get them out with a flathead.



Worked great for a few of them, but I ended up having to go grab some penetrating spray. Stupid me decided to make the trip on the Suzuki, so that lead to some interesting placement of items to get them back home. Notice the brushes in my pocket and bag of PB tied to my belt loop. Necessity is the mother of invention, right? Haha. 



Cleaned up the breather cover a bit, there's actually metal under all that dirt! It'll get either painted or polished later on, don't mind the scratches.



Too much PB and bug spray meant I had to concede and put a fan in the shed. Great idea.



With the breather cover off, I noticed these little ridges inside. What do these mean? Are they normal or are they a sign that I'm about to find even more problems? I'm officially out of my wheelhouse and across the street, so to speak haha.





I decided to let some PB do its thing and hung some tools up as best as I could in the limited space. Can't put up pegboard, so this is how I'm gonna do it for now.



More disassembly as the screws began to loosen up a bit.



I removed another cover, this time exposing the mechanical parts that the chain run on. I'm not sure of the terminology. Thank god for big rubber bands and wide screwdrivers.



I can see what I believe would be the starter, towards the left, now that the cover is off. And I'm also starting to wonder if this bike was buried underground for some time, as it looks like a small garden was started inside.



Unfortunately I had to throw in the towel right there for today, my interview is in a few hours and I have to make sure I'm properly prepared.



So my questions for today are:
1. What are those ridges in the metal under the breather cover?
2. How the hell do I get those other stripped screws out? They crumble under any pressure it seems, and the dremel and rubber band trick haven't shown much success for the couple of them remaining.
3. What should I be doing/not be doing next?
And finally, 4. Am I still not in over my head? Kind of feels like it haha. But seeing some metal through the dirt and stuff was a big morale boost for me.

Cheers!


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[calj737]

2. Everyone of those "Phillips" screws is NOT a Phillips, they're JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard. That's why they strip out. The bit for them is flatter and the ridges in the bit are broader. You can obtain JIS bits and an impact driver, and everyone will turn right out (it's very, very, very worth buying them!)

1. Those ridges under the breather cover are nothing to worry about. It's the cast aluminum after 40 years and heat scaling away, and/or casting flash.

3. You need to save every screw and put it in a small ziploc baggies, labeled. Print out a large format copy of the parts fiche for each cover/area and label the Baggie accordingly. This will make your life much easier upon reassembly. Take huge amounts of pictures. Store them on Photobucket or somewhere. This will repay you later.

4. You're only in over your head if you panic and go at this without a plan, some organization, and patience. Many of us started exactly where you are without the benefit of this forum.

The part where the chain runs over is called the drive sprocket/front sprocket. Yes, that's the starter motor to the left. The OIL pressure switch is at 10:00 to the sprocket. Be gentle in there, there's some small gauge wires running around, including the NEUTRAL switch and wires.

Go easy with the coarse brushes scraping and scrubbing the cases. Those scratches you're putting in are much harder to get out later. Some quality degreaser/engine cleaner, plenty of elbow grease, and nylon scrub brushes are what's called for. Take your time, stay organized...

[kasper.tyler]

I had no idea those screws were an entirely different type. Wish I had bothered to ask sooner! Hah.
As far as keeping things organized both in photos and in bags, most of it is being put into ziploc bags to keep them organized. And I took about 30-40 photos today, showing where the screws came out of and such, I just figured you guys didn't want to see them all.
Glad to hear the ridges aren't bad news as well, it was nice to see nice, clean metal when the cover came off. Can't judge a book by its cover, right?

And I think I'm keeping my head above water on this. I'm trying to be meticulous and save everything as it was when it was taken off so I can find suitable replacements or re-use the parts and pieces.
Thanks for all the advice once again, calj737!


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[flatlander]

i can only echo what cal said re. taking pictures of every step, before/after. and put all parts you remove in bags or boxes, labelling them. it will make it so much easier to remember what goes where, when you are ready to assemble it again.

you have an old style rocker cover, where the rocker shafts were able to rotate and wear out the holes in the cover that they are stuck into.
check for wear as if it does exist, it will make it impossible to set valve clearance properly.
if it's not worn there's a trick with adding o-rings (same as used on the pins for the end caps on the cover), jam them in the wholes before putting on the caps and that apparently stops them from rotating. if it's worn you're best off sourcing a new cover, from a 550 k3 or f2 model.

for more details you can search the forum for "550 rocker shaft wear" or check here on of those threads:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,131933.0.html or
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122627.0.html

[edit]
just realise you have a 500. i know this problem from an early 550 but apparently, the same thing can happen with the 500.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

JIS bits and a "manual" impact driver are key.  The kind you strike with a hammer.

[kasper.tyler]

Tiny update on the build.
I finally invested in a manual impact driver. Best purchase ever.



With the help of that beautiful tool, I was able to get the valve cover off the head. I was very careful to take everything off and store it appropriately. Namely these small nuts and screws from the rocker arms.



So far I'm very happy with what I'm seeing inside the engine! It seems pretty clean, and the deeper I get into it, the better I feel about rebuilding it.





I have no idea how to take off a timing chain. Haha I'll be researching the rest of the tear-down before I go much further.





I'm working day 5 of 7 in a row, so I've barely had any time all week to work on it. As usual, I took plenty of pictures for each step and organized things afterwards. Let me know if anything looks out of place to you guys. It all looks great to me, but I'm not an expert like you guys.

Hopefully everyone is making solid progress with their own projects and builds!

Cheers!

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[Puffin]

Subscribed.... 

Hey man... I started a project very similar to this only a few months before you and I had absolutely zero mechanical experience as well.  I wondered many times if I was in over my head but so far so good.

If I can offer any advice it is be patient, tackle tasks in smaller manageable chunks, do your research on each component until you are confident you understand it, use the parts manual as the ultimate guide, take loads of photos and keep parts organised when you take them apart.

As well as the Impact Driver my most essential tool has been a brass wheel on the end of a battery operated drill - cleans rust, paint and crud off almost everything, particularly old bolt threads.

Hope my build thread can help you and good luck

[kasper.tyler]

Welcome to the party! Haha. Hopefully my troubles and problems can help you down the road as well. I'll be flipping through your posts for tips on my own.
I'll be investing in some more cleaning tools once I get everything taken apart. Right now I'm too concerned with getting it all apart so I can clean things individually.

Thanks for taking an interest though, feels good to have people care about the Honda that everyone told me to throw away haha.

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[calj737]

Removing the cam chain is easy, but it takes a technique. Loosen the chain (bolt below carb manifolds, and then the bolt on the cam sprocket, rotate motor, loosen second bolt. Slip sprocket off cam, lift and slide chain off sprocket. Remove sprocket completely. Then lift chain, slide cam out and secure chain from falling into engine (this is important!).

Easy!

[2strokeTrush]

Those are not small bolts, they are the valve tappet Adjusters, be careful with the head.

[kasper.tyler]

Hello again from STL. I didn't have much time to work on the motor this evening, but after some research, I figured I had enough time to get the cam out. I didn't take any pictures with this phone during the process, other than this one.



I made sure to suspend the chain so it couldn't fall down into the engine. Thanks for the tip on that, calj. Your directions and a video helped me get the cam out with no trouble whatsoever.







Other than that, I didn't get very far. I'm having a hard time sourcing a tool locally that will remove these spark plugs. As far as I can tell, this is the right TYPE of tool, just the incorrect SIZE. It's too big for the spark plugs.

Being the innovative type, I found some scrap aluminum lying around and folded it into little pieces to secure around the edges of the tool, effectively making it for a smaller size.



As you can see, it worked great!



....that is until the crappy old tool itself decided to take a #$%*.



So I'm calling it a night and leaving it alone until I can find the right size tool.

Cheers!


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[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Loads of them for sale on eBay. Check your head for gamage. You have a bit of a gouge on the lower right side of your image. Make sure you don't have any that compromise the gasket and seal between the head and rocker cover.

[kasper.tyler]

I'm trying to avoid eBay, the shipping takes too long and I have the weekend off to work on it. I'd hate to waste it because I can't get past a tiny problem. I'll look into it, though.
And as far as the gouge you're talking about... I don't see it. I'm not as sharp of an eye for these things, though. That being said, the whole thing is still very dirty and rusty, so it may just be that.
Regardless, I'll take a very close look at it all. Everything was sealed together well when I took it apart. Thanks for the tip.

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[onetruepunk87]

It sucks waiting for parts but sometimes eBay is unavoidable. I always try and check the parts for sale on here first when I'm looking for something.

Luckily, spark plug wrenches are pretty common and you don't need the original Honda part.
http://4into1.com/wps-deep-well-12mm-spark-plug-wrench-18mm-hex-size/

[kasper.tyler]

I thankfully found a spark plug socket that fit the job, and for that I'm thankful. I took some more apart last night.

With the head off, the tops of the pistons are now visible... And pretty dirty. But I suppose that's par for the course when your job is to have little explosions on top of you all the time.







I wanted to get the oil pan off so that I could completely clean out the insides of the 30 year old oil. I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to accomplish that yet, but I'll figure it out soon. The gears inside seem to be clean, and upon my initial inspection none of them appeared to be broken, damaged, or in need of replacement. I'll probably be leaving the transmission alone, as I don't want to take apart something that seems to be just fine as it is.

That said, here are some more images of that so that you guys can be the judge of whether or not it needs to be torn into.







I was able to turn the crank and watch all the pistons move, careful to avoid losing or damaging the timing chain. Everything moved freely and without any force. All good signs!



I didn't have time to really mess with the oil pan or look at it until today, and after wiping up some of the oil, I found there seems to be some metallic grime on the bottom of it. Not sure if that's normal or not. I also found about 1.5 cm worth of a piston ring down in there, which seems to be about as far from home as that could get. Also not sure if that would have any adverse effects on the rest of the internals.



Anyway, today I got the head completely off today. The pistons look good to me, I can't find anything to complain about them. Although I'm not sure I'll be keeping them. More on that later.



The cylinder walls look great! No pitting or strange grooves or anything. The insides are very shiny and clean.







I spent a little bit of time with a wire brush and a rag cleaning off the funk and gunk from the head. Amazing what a little love and scrub can do to an old piece of metal. Big morale boost for sure.








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[kasper.tyler]

So as of right now I have a few big questions regarding the direction I'll be heading with this. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

My goals with this build are to make it safe, fun, and quick -- in that order.

In order to make it quick, what should I focus on doing at this stage? Would it be wise to invest in a big bore kit and have someone machine the block? How much more disassembly is required for that to happen? Or would it be wiser to focus on other upgrades and leave the displacement where it is? As an American, I've assumed there's "no replacement for displacement" since birth, but that isn't necessarily true anymore.

Quickness to me isn't necessarily being able to win races on this bike... That won't be its purpose. But going down the road and hitting the throttle, I want to feel acceleration pretty quickly. My GS450 doesn't have this feeling. It revs high before "hooking" and then it starts going. It's the same feeling you get in a little 4-banger CVT sedan when you hit the gas and wait a bit before you start actually moving faster. I don't like that feeling much, as I'm sure neither do any of you.

Also, how the hell do I really clean this thing? Do I need to remove all the gears to clean the inside or could I hypothetically dump any of these parts into a diluted bucket of simple green and call it a day? There is a ton of dirt and grime built up on this thing, and I would like it to be shiny again. Ideally, I'd like to be able to submerge the valve covers and head, valves and all, and let them soak off the gross stuff. Is that possible?

Thanks ahead of time for the help. Sorry to ask to many questions, but I'd rather combine the advice from you guys with my own research before making a big decision.

Cheers!


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[calj737]

At a minumum, you need new rings to replace the broken piece. With new rings, I'd hone the cylinders.

As for cleaning the internals, flush with Kerosene or Diesel and call it a day. I would remove the left side cover, then service the oil pump. Member Elan sells a rebuild kit with valuable seals, o-rings and necessary bits not available any longer.

There is an inexpensive option to bore your motor, the CruzinImage 59mm kit. Costs about $120 for pistons, rings, and gasket. Then only machining of the bores ($150-$200). A good rebuild of your carbs, fresh ignition  tune-up and a 650 Cam drop in and away you go. Inexpensive, simple, and proven.

Spend the balance of money on rear shocks and front end suspension/handling upgrades. You'll enjoy the ride more than the few extra "butt dyno" ponies.

[Restoration Fan]

Just for my own personal clarification:  if he did go with the overbore (which by the way is a great price, I paid around $100 just for my 4 sets of piston rings), he could actually go back with the 550 cam if he wanted to do so, right?  The 650 cam is just for more HP, correct?

[flatlander]

yes he could use a 550 cam but the 650 cam produces more power, and sooner. will get more out of the overbore pistons.
these honda cams were profiled to meet emission requirements at the time, so they are all a bit of a compromise but the 650 is the hottest of the bunch. any cam optimised for performance will do better but it will also cost a lot more.

kasper with your priorities of "safe, fun, and quick" do as cal says and spend some time and money on the chassis (suspension and bearings), and brakes. i did that even before i tore into the engine and it transforemed the way the bike handled so much. i'd even say those are necessary prerequisites in order to be able to make use of an upgraded engine.

[flatlander]

... and while the oil pan is off, check how the primary chain feels. it seems like many people replace it as a matter of routine but if you're not inclined to split the cases, at least make sure it's still good at this point.

[kasper.tyler]

calj - Your answer was just was I was looking for. I think the big bore kit had my interest, but I wasn't sure it was a viable option. Glad to hear that it most definitely is. I have a buddy who works for a machine shop, I'll pay him a visit tomorrow and see about the cost of getting it machined. As far as cleaning, the inside will see a flush as suggested, but I also need to clean the outside of the motor- particularly in between the fins. There was a colony of wasps that holed up inside this bike at some point in the last couple of decades. Their homes and a ton of dirt/oil/funk are all over this engine, and I'd like to get it all cleaned up as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Also- after a little bit of looking into the 650 cam for the motor, it seems there may be different versions. Am I looking for a specific year/model to harvest that part from?
Side note: I'll DEFINITELY be looking into high quality chassis parts once the engine is done. I absolutely want this bike to stop just as quickly as it goes.

Restoration Fan - I'm glad you asked that question, because I was wondering that as well. Thanks for covering that for me.

flatlander - all this talk about the 650 cam has convinced me that I should look into it. You and calj have been a great deal of help and a wealth of knowledge thus far, so I'll trust your judgment that you know what sort of "feel" I'm looking for from the engine. So thank you for that.
And no worries, chassis parts will be top notch. I don't want to build this bike only to have it kill me because I cut corners.
--and as far as the primary chain; it looks good to me. I don't know what to look at or feel for to know if it needs replacing, though.

Thanks again, everyone.

[calj737]

So a tad more clarification:

You can simply drop a 650 cam into your engine to achieve slightly better performance. You need to verify the cam has proper clearance as it rotates. The years that are compatible with your engine are 79-82. You will also need the TACH gear drive and a different tach gauge. The ratio is different than your 500. No big deal.

I suggested the 650 option because they are more available, and they do spice up if you use the 59mm pistons. Pistons alone won't make a material difference. Really well re-built carbs, a really solid tuned up ignition, and the cam will make your bike run very well. Its not going to be a CBR600, but it will be "safe, reliable, perky, and fun".

IF you take your head to your buddy who is a machinist, and he determines you need a valve job, I would strongly encourage you to consider replacing the stock intake valves with 1mm Oversize valves. These added to the pistons, cam and tuned motor will create even more grunt. This is an expense I would only undertake if you need to replace valves. Ordinarily, it is not something I would do as maintenance or lapping of valves. But do check the valve guides for wear.

Last bit about the 650 cam: if you use aftermarket cams from WebCam or MegaCycle, they're hard welded and require hard welded rockers. So that increases the expense of these cams as options.

Hope that makes it clear and answers the nuances of it all.

[Puffin]

I slotted a 650 cam straight in no problem but the clearance been the taller lobes and the engine case was very small.   Some people find it actually touches.   You can grind of some of the engine case quite easy but I recommend you test it whilst you have it off the bike as it will be easier to work with if you have to get your dremel tool involved.

When the primary chain gets too loose it starts to eat into the engine case at the bottom of the engine around the oil gallery.  You can see this by looking up from underneath.   Have a look at the beginning of my build thread for photos.

[kasper.tyler]

Thanks for all the clarification with the cam. I'll be looking into it more in the coming weeks as things come together. I'll be sure to check clearance on the new cam to make certain it doesn't hit anywhere inside.

Any idea where I can find the new tach and tach gear? I figured I'd hit the local Honda shop tomorrow and ask them about those parts and how much the carbs will take to be rebuilt. I've never done it and thought about undertaking it myself, but I'd rather the carbs be done correctly so I get all the power out of them that I can.

Final question: I was going to let the cylinders soak in a bucket of water and simple green tomorrow morning. Is that safe to do without harming the cylinders? And how long should I soak them for?

Did some cleaning today on the engine but I can only get so much with a brush. Which, by the way, if you're looking for an inexpensive option to clean between the fins, a toothbrush with some excess shaved off works great haha.



These work alright, too.



Bonus: not for long



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[2strokeTrush]

If your going to have a machine shop do work on your cylinders you might as well have them clean the outside as well.