Author Topic: Pod filter database?  (Read 3029 times)

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Offline Cb^_^750

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Pod filter database?
« on: June 04, 2015, 11:09:54 PM »
I can't tell you the countless threads and forums I've been going though the past couple of days trying to better understand the way pods should be set up. And what so far what I've read is that pods clearly are not favored when it comes to the older Honda bikes. But it doesn't make sense to me that if this is such a widely debated topic that it can't just be compressed all into one thread. I myself am trying to get my pods to work on my 76 750f and it just seems like a hassle to have to scroll through countless threads trying to piece together the necessary information needed. And since pods are the trend it just seems to make the most sense to put everything into one. So maybe this could be the thread were people can post there Set up for pods (year, make, model, jet size,  exhaust, ect)So it makes searching a little easier. Unless there is already a thread but I have yet to come across one. Just my 2 cents :)

Offline PeWe

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2015, 11:21:38 PM »
I do not see the problem.
Pods when using other carbs or tuned engine with hot cam, ported head, better flowing exhaust in need of much better flow. I had pods on my K6 carbs, no problem at all. Engine ran very smooth despite heavy rain, hard winds and high speed which was normal weather when touring from Sweden south to Austria where weather turned to the better.

The better air flow in, larger main jet maybe needles 1 step up too.

Std engine, why pods with need of rejetting? Airbox works like a silencer.
My current carbs have KN pods mounted on pod adapters that are short velocity stacks.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline flybox1

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 06:53:43 AM »
Hopefully Cqyqte will jump in here and post his setup.  He fab'd a nice shroud for his pods to smooth out air flow.
It looked good, too.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2015, 08:45:05 AM »
Generic pods are made in such a way to prevent them making beneficial gains in performance. I have yet to see a dyno spread that shows a set of Emgo type pods making more power than the stock airbox set up. They are a cosmetic option.
Here's a thread that explains on one type of carb why they don't work.
When listening to others set ups you are taking their work that they "work fine", but do they actually know if they are better than the original set up. Only a dyno will tell.
http://www.caferacer.net/forum/tips-tricks/19639-pod-filter-thread-geeto-4.html

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2015, 04:39:11 PM »
Generic pods are made in such a way to prevent them making beneficial gains in performance. I have yet to see a dyno spread that shows a set of Emgo type pods making more power than the stock airbox set up. They are a cosmetic option.
Here's a thread that explains on one type of carb why they don't work.
When listening to others set ups you are taking their work that they "work fine", but do they actually know if they are better than the original set up. Only a dyno will tell.
http://www.caferacer.net/forum/tips-tricks/19639-pod-filter-thread-geeto-4.html

Cheap, nasty pods won't make more power, actually, they make less, there are plenty of reasons why.  Yes, "works fine" leaves a lot to be desired and should be taken with a grain of salt.


My current carbs have KN pods mounted on pod adapters that are short velocity stacks.

 Pewe, thats why your set up works, you have velocity stacks to smooth out the air as it enters the carbs, Honda didn't fit stacks just because they looked good.... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 05:10:32 PM »
Cheap pods block your air jets and just plain suck.  Pods can work if you shell out for the K & N pods.  Forget your $20 Ebay special.

My theory is most people buy junk pods and get poor results.  You don't hear from those who shelled out $150 for K & N and proper jetting. 

Let me ask you what brand pods are you running?

Offline wowbagger

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 06:19:24 PM »
I will say performance aside, one benefit to pods is it makes pulling the carbs out significantly less of a hassle. This is no reason to run pods but it is one (and possibly the only) benefit to running pods instead of the stock air box.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 01:42:36 AM »
Generic pods are made in such a way to prevent them making beneficial gains in performance. I have yet to see a dyno spread that shows a set of Emgo type pods making more power than the stock airbox set up. They are a cosmetic option.
Here's a thread that explains on one type of carb why they don't work.
When listening to others set ups you are taking their work that they "work fine", but do they actually know if they are better than the original set up. Only a dyno will tell.
http://www.caferacer.net/forum/tips-tricks/19639-pod-filter-thread-geeto-4.html

Cheap, nasty pods won't make more power, actually, they make less, there are plenty of reasons why.  Yes, "works fine" leaves a lot to be desired and should be taken with a grain of salt.


My current carbs have KN pods mounted on pod adapters that are short velocity stacks.

 Pewe, thats why your set up works, you have velocity stacks to smooth out the air as it enters the carbs, Honda didn't fit stacks just because they looked good.... ;)

Yes, my new carbs have nice filter setup. see 2 first photos.

But, my old OEM carbs with pods worked fine too. Bike was light red then, see photo below. The pods have no stamps and probably NOT KN.
Ported head with bigger IN valves, hotter cam (AF SS-1), 836cc.
Std carb setup: main jets:147.5! Needles 1 step up. pilots std (40)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline martin99

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 03:52:09 AM »
Here we go again!

IMO, a 'Pods Database' isn't going to achieve much, except maybe provide a baseline for those daft enough (brave enough?) to go down this route.

I have recent experience of fitting pods to two identical bikes - both 1977 750F2s with PD41s. Same pods (S&B, not cheap and crappy), same exhaust (Marshal Deeptone 4 into one). One bike was happy with stock pilots, needles raised one clip position and 130 mains. The other (current) one runs like #$%* on those settings, needing larger pilots and two clip positions to get it anywhere near acceptable (it being accepted that the term 'acceptable' is subjective and means different things to different people, a dyno being the only objective way to test). Go figure.

Neither bike ran/runs as well as when they had the stock airbox system, and after trying umpteen combinations on these and many bikes in over nearly forty years of bike ownership I've come to accept that they never will. I persevere, because I've always liked the look of them but if you embark on this you will always be faced with a compromise in performance.

 :)
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline Cqyqte

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 06:05:55 AM »
I heard a great disturbance in the Force...

I have a CycleX streetfighter motor built by Ken himself.  It has 849cc big bore pistons together with all the goodies Ken builds in his Streetfighter package.  I struggled for 3 years to run a twin Mikuni set up but finally abandoned it for a set of PD41A carbs I bought at a flee market.  I installed the carbs on the motor with a set of K&N pods and worked that summer to dial in the jets and settings.  I used a spreadsheet to collect and display data from each tuning and ride session.  I even spent money on a couple of hours on a local dyno to be sure air/fuel ratios were dialed in as close as I could get with the set up.

On the road there were days it ran like a raped ape and some days I could feel a flutter or studder at a particular throttle position.  I couldn't understand it, the barimetric pressures were roughly the same, temperatures the same and even humidity.  Then one thing started to show up in the data, the wind.  On a windy day the flutter/stumbles became more prevelent.  One day in particular the wind was extremely high, cross gusting to the direction of travel.  The bike suffered, but I was too far from home to simply get out of it.  I feathered the throttle, road with knees tight to the tank, shifted gears to stay away from that throttle range.  Having a long ride in the wind with it hitting me across wide open fields or catching me as I came out of protected areas the guts allowed me to experiment and make observations.  The most alarming fact was as I rode along and the bike settled in holding its own pulling well with no noticeable faultering I would see approaching riders and removed my left hand off the grip to acknowledge their wave the bike coughed and fluttered until I put my hand back.  I started to test the conditions and moved my hand off the bars and as the bike faultered I adjusted the choke to see if I could determine whether it was a lean or rich condition being experienced.  But I couldn't sense enough difference to come up with a better understanding.

I got home and waited until the bike cooled down and pulled the plugs to see if there was any significant indicator of extreme mixture evidence, nothing tan colored four plugs.  I slept on it but the thought of air flow disruption from the movement of my hand stuck in my head all night.  A side note at this point, years before with another bike I had set up a Tornado by Thunder filter on a VTwin.  That filter came with concial chrome cover that shrouded the filter by 270 degrees.  The filter was designed to point into the wind in the direction of travel and I eventually found that the perfect set up had the open section of the filter facing inward towards the cylinder jugs.  Some of the evidence that I looked at when I tried to perfect the set up was that when the open part of the filter was in the un-obstructed airflow the bike would return extremely poor fuel mileage.  This led me to believe that the air turbulence was actually creating a very rich situation, not because of jet settings but because air flow in the carburator throat is being distrupted.

Enough on that, back to my '75 CB750F.  The next morning I woke and drew up a design for an aluminum shroud that would provide cross-wind turbulance for the four pod filters.





You can see in the pics the shroud is just that a barrier that protects the side of the pod from air turbulence.  I have since installing it, ridden the bike on windy days, still days and opened my knees to catch the air, moved my hands off the bars and not had the motor faulter as it did before.  The shroud is completely open at the back end and the front is wrapped tight around the outer two pods.  There is no flat plate that stops air from flowing in and around between each pod so no low pressure zone is created in the shroud, it just smooths out the air reducing turbulence over the filters.

I did something similar on a CB450 I built, I made two cylindrical tubes of thin aluminum the diameter of the carb horn and an 1" shorter than the length of the pod filters.  The cylindrical tubes slide on the carb horn, then the pod slid over the tube and clamped to the carb horn holding both filter and tube in place.  The tube acted as a crude velocity stack covered by the filter.  Because the tube didn't touch the fiter material the carb could still draw air through the whole filter but pulled it straight down the tube into the throat.  The tube prevented side air turbulence from affecting the air flow down the tube and the carb throat.  Just a different way but it worked.  I could have tried the same with the CB750 but I felt making four identical tubes and positioning them perfectly was going to be near impossible so I created the outer shroud.
 ;)

Sorry I am remis

Pilot Jets: 35 (Keihin)
Mains: 125 (Keihin)
PMS Screws 2.5 turns out
PD41A Carbs
K&N Pods
DR8EIX NGK plugs
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 12:06:59 PM by Cqyqte »

Offline PeWe

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 12:03:05 PM »
The design of the bike can be a factor too. I did not have any problems with the pods on my OEM carbs and tuned engine as it look in red. I guess my legs protected against cross winds.  Anyway, tuned engine and airbox must be restrictive. Maybe possible to drill some extra holes and cover them with a mesh to not let sand, dirt and insects enter.
-Possible for handy men to design and sell airboxes with filter for better flow. OEM carbs, VM29, RS34, TMR32 or maybe other carbs too.

Pods give an extra flapping sound.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Cb^_^750

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 01:09:24 PM »
I think this thread got a little off topic. we all know pods are widely discussed and debated on whether they are beneficial or not. But my original idea for the thread was for the people THAT ARE RUNNING PODS to post their set ups and what works best for them.
Example
Year of bike
Size of motor
Pod brand
Jetting size
Needle position
Type of carb
And anything else you modified

Offline martin99

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 04:09:55 PM »
I think this thread got a little off topic. we all know pods are widely discussed and debated on whether they are beneficial or not. But my original idea for the thread was for the people THAT ARE RUNNING PODS to post their set ups and what works best for them.
Example
Year of bike
Size of motor
Pod brand
Jetting size
Needle position
Type of carb
And anything else you modified

I do run pods, and I already gave you that information in my post, making the point that what worked before doesn't work now, with the same year and model of bike with identical intake and exhaust systems. There are a few variables to consider, crosswinds being one of them and not least, I think, condition of carbs. Worn slides and bodies will create a richer environment and may require different jetting to suit - I think this is probably the reason my two F2s run differently on identical jet/needle settings. A database might work if it assumes the carbs are brand new, but when they're forty years old with who knows how many miles under their belts it can only ever provide a staring point.
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 05:27:39 PM »
I think this thread got a little off topic. we all know pods are widely discussed and debated on whether they are beneficial or not. But my original idea for the thread was for the people THAT ARE RUNNING PODS to post their set ups and what works best for them.
Example
Year of bike
Size of motor
Pod brand
Jetting size
Needle position
Type of carb
And anything else you modified

Let's start with you what is your setup?  Pod brand?

Offline Cb^_^750

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 06:04:25 PM »
1976 750f super sport
Keihin carbs
eBay pods
120 mains
40 slow
1 1/2 turns out on my mixture screw
2nd from top on my needles
4into1 with 12in shorty muffler with baffle
I think my problem is my slow jet is too small. What do you think?
I didn't want to post my setup since it isn't working for me.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 06:24:29 PM by Cb^_^750 »

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 06:16:57 PM »
Thanks for sharing.  Lots people using pods sucessfully.  Most all the people on the gsresoruces forum are "pod people", and they all same the same thing gotta buy the good stuff.  K & N or APE.  If you are really wanting pods I would go there read what they have to say.

The cliff notes.

K & N Pods = $150
K & N Jet Kit = $100

Now your at $250

According to the GSer Pod people most pod wanta bees are not willing to spend the coin to get a working pod setup.

I can rebuild a cb750 airbox with a K & N for less than $75 bucks.

Don't believe me they say it over and over cheap pods restrict air intact because they block jets.

Notice how people don't like the look of uni foam filters, but they work cause they don't block anything.

Also each bike has it's own personality.


Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 06:27:46 PM »
Here you go complete database

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?199275-Pods-Pipes-Panic!-(Help!-Your-Bike-has-Pods)

Most here don't want to shell out that kind of cash unless we are going racing.  V-stack kick pods butt any day of the week too.

Offline Big Red

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2015, 02:29:11 PM »
Hello,

I have had success with pods after a lot lot lot of messing around. I've finally got all the plugs to beautiful tan and it runs great.

Here's the setup that works for me.

78 CB750K
PowerArc Ignition - Only brown wire grounded (2nd least advanced setting)
NGK DR8ES plugs
Carpy 4-1 Exhaust
657B Carbs
40 Slows
125 Mains
Needles all the way in the bottom notch.
Mixture screws tuned/turned individually to get good results. They're not all the same setting. 
Uni Pods well coated with the Uni goo.

The best thing you can do IMO is make sure the ignition is spot on. The Powerarc was the best decision I've made with the bike.

Good Luck.

Chris
1978 CB750 Brat

Offline turboed13b

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2015, 02:42:12 PM »
I put some cheap pods on my 550. It does take a ton of time tuning I think I have pulled my carbs off more than ten times changing setting. Not dyno tested but it does pull the same amount as a stock cb550 in a drag race.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2015, 05:27:18 PM »
I could see how this could be useful for giving people a starting point. Here are my setting which seem to work really well on my 1978 CB550K K4 with velocity stacks and 4-1 with reverse cone quiet core muffler.

IMS-1 turn out
Main Jet-110
Slow Jet-45
Float Height-varied (All fuel levels 4mm from bowl seam)
Needle Setting-3rd from top


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline jorwesflow

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Re: Pod filter database?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2015, 07:53:30 PM »
1977 CB550K

First set of pods: I had some cheap EMGO pods on mine for a few years. Bought it that way. You know the dark cone-ish shaped ones with the chrome back. The PO had also put on a 4 into 1 MAC exhaust. When I got it, there were 100 mains (stock is 90 i believe), 38 slows (stock), and the needle was 3rd groove from the top (stock). It always ran a bit hot (on the lean side) but I would rarely catch a flat spot in the throttle. Sometimes it had more to do with how my legs were situated and funneling air. e.g. if going 70mph+ with knees hugging the tank, it felt great. But if I opened up my legs even a bit, whatever turbulence that caused would instantly lean out the mix and flatten it out. But that wasn't a normal riding position either, so it didn't matter. I'd also need to keep my eye on how clean and oiled the pods were. After about 200 or 300 miles i would spray on a light coat of UNI oil to keep it from starting to run more lean. All that aside, I would easily hit 105mph+ (on safe open straightaways).

Second set of pods: these UNIs http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UKI17Y
I thought this would be a quick swap, i.e. pods are pods, right? Not really. These ran me considerably more lean which surprised me because compared to the EMGOs, theres a lot more foam here. And i was generous with the oil too. Nonetheless, I had to make some adjustments. Tried going up to 105 mains, which didn't quite cut it on WOT (wide open throttle). So I went with 108s and that feels pretty good. Idle seems to still be fine, but I might jump up to 40 one day since my plugs read pretty light after a 5-10min idle (not sure if that's the right way to tell if your idle/slow is too lean/rich). I lifted the needle to the fourth groove from the top and I'm still a tad flat coming up out of first gear and i'll occasionally get a little lean pop on a quick throttle blip on a colder day (in LA, so like 50-55°). Might go another groove down to raise the needle. But it still runs pretty great all in all. The turbulence thing I can still notice at certain speeds, but I know that's an unsolvable pod mystery.

For both pod brands the IMS was a full turn out. I believe standard for the '77 is two turns out.
1977 CB550K