Topic: Blew Oil Filter, Ran Un-lubricated now Top Ticking and Lack of Power

[mkoski]

Cross-post from my build thread to reach a wider knowledge-base. 

Hi guys,

Sunday night I was out for a ride and heading home when I lost oil pressure around one mile away from my house. I was on a major road with a high speed limit when I noticed my engine began to lack power and run a little funny. This lack of power was accompanied by a fairly loud ticking in the top end of my engine almost immediately after the power loss was noticeable. I made an exit and noticed that at idle I had to give some throttle to keep the engine running. This felt like I was fighting piston/sleeve friction.  I brought it into my garage. I tried using the electric starter to turn the engine over and it would not turn. Unbeknownst to me at the time, my oil filter on the front had ruptured and caused me to lose a lot of oil. I left my bike to cool for the night after looking in the oil tank, confirming that there was no oil.

Yesterday morning (Monday) I went to my bike and hit the electric start. The engine turned over no problems and seemed to sound okay. I did not start it as it had no oil. After work I picked up a bunch of oil and went home and changed the oil twice and also the oil filter. I didn't find any obvious signs of metal in the oil. I fired the bike up after circulating oil with the starter for a bit and it started fine and seemed to sound okay, besides slightly-louder-than-before valve-train sounds. I revved it up a bit and it sounded fine so I took it for a ride. While riding I could feel the same symptoms of when I was riding home Sunday night. A loud ticking sound was apparent when the engine was under load. The bike would rev up more slowly and produce very little power.

So my question to you guys is this: from the lack of power and ticking in the valves when under load I am sure I need to do a top-end rebuild/inspection. What else should I look for and what specifically do you guys think is causing this issue? My best guess thus far is that a valve or rocker is stuck/damaged and this is causing a cylinder to not fire, causing the lack of power. Does that sound right?

Tonight I am going to remove tappets to check valve clearances and make sure nothing is loose then test compression across all four cylinders. This should give me some idea of what might be wrong.

[flybox1]

Sorry...this sucks to hear. 
Even without an oil filter, you will get circulation. 
Oil travels from the exterior of the filter, to the interior, and thru the cover bolt ...
Are you sure your oil pump didnt shiit the bed?
All the oil being in the sump makes me question the pump, or an oil blockage somewhere, not the filter itself.

[madmtnmotors]

Sorry...this sucks to hear. 
Even without an oil filter, you will get circulation. 
Oil travels from the exterior of the filter, to the interior, and thru the cover bolt ...
Are you sure your oil pump didnt shiit the bed?
All the oil being in the sump makes me question the pump, or an oil blockage somewhere, not the filter itself.

From the other thread I gather that the "rupture" was external = most of the oil was lost/ran dry = not good.

[mkoski]

Sorry...this sucks to hear. 
Even without an oil filter, you will get circulation. 
Oil travels from the exterior of the filter, to the interior, and thru the cover bolt ...
Are you sure your oil pump didnt shiit the bed?
All the oil being in the sump makes me question the pump, or an oil blockage somewhere, not the filter itself.

From the other thread I gather that the "rupture" was external = most of the oil was lost/ran dry = not good.

Correct, I was using a spin-on filter and the rubber seal around it gave up.

[flybox1]

so all the oil blew out onto the road?
(I didnt gather from your original post that this was a spin-on filter.  Understood it as the filter in the housing gave up)

[mkoski]

Thats the funny thing, I never noticed any oil leak! Might have been a slow (ish) leak that finally drained the last of the oil.

I know (or at least am pretty sure of this) that it was the filter, though, because last night I refilled the oil tank and idled my bike for a while. After it warmed up a bit I brought the RPM up a little and oil sprayed out the side of the filter 10 ft away from the bike, and a decent amount of it too.

[70CB750]

I always used Bosch as a spin on filter, but the last oil change, I just could not get it tight enough.  Spent the money on K&N because you can get socket on the filter and drive it in.  Other than that, never had any problems with spin ons.

Anyway, your engine:

- pull the oil pan and check for debris in it.
- set cam chain tensioner
- set valve clearances

Take it for a spin , chances are it will be just fine.  Are all exhaust pipes hot - are all cylinders firing?

[flybox1]

wow...ok.
Id ditch that spin-on and go with a standard filter and housing before more damage is done.
Pour at least a quart of oil up top before starting it again.

IIWY, valve cover needs to be removed for top end inspection.  cam lobes, rocker faces, cam tower seats...etc.

[ekpent]

Next time you start it up check the head pipe temps with a wet rag to see if all 4 are still firing, symptoms sound like you may not be and its quick and easy to verify.  Sorry to hear about that problem.

[70CB750]

I always use my fingers 

Wet rag - now thats a novel idea 

[mkoski]

I always use my fingers 

Wet rag - now thats a novel idea 

I love to use my fingers too, really clear on which ones are hot. 

I tossed my spin-on filter and put the stock housing back on with a new filter element. The security of a nice tight bolt makes me sleep better after this incident.


Here's my plan:

As per ekpent/70CB750 I will start by running the bike and checking pipe temps as a preliminary.

Next, if I am not firing on a cylinder I will do a compression test and then test again after adding oil to the cylinder. (Ghetto test of rings or valve causing the leak). If the cylinders are all running equally then that's going to be an interesting twist...

During that process I will open up tappet covers to ensure everything is secure, clearances are set and that everything looks okay.

I really dont want to take off the cover as that means I am removing the engine from the frame. I think the odds of this are high though, so I am realistic. If I can get everything to run smoothly again I wont pull the engine but I will change the oil frequently and be very mindful of whats coming out and the sounds of the engine.

The ticking at the top end really makes me think a valve got eff'ed up though so we shall see what results yield, I'll keep you guys up to date.

[70CB750]

Good luck!

Somebody demonstrated that it is possible to take off the valve cover with engine in the frame if you remove the breather cover first.

Just saying 

[mkoski]

Good luck!

Somebody demonstrated that it is possible to take off the valve cover with engine in the frame if you remove the breather cover first.

Just saying 

Thanks, I'll need it! And you bet I'll be trying that before I pull the engine!

What a thing to happen on the day I officially completed the build and after riding 2000 km on that filter... 

[flybox1]

Somebody demonstrated that it is possible to take off the valve cover with engine in the frame if you remove the breather cover first.

Shenanigans I say!     Unless you have a frame kit, or a 500/550, I dont think it is possible.

[CycleRanger]

Correct, I was using a spin-on filter and the rubber seal around it gave up.

I had this happen too.
Fortunately it occurred before I left the garage.
It was not Bosch filter.
Unfortunately it blew oil all over the hot pipes and the garage.
I switched back to the stock filter setup.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I haven't had issues with my spin-off filters on both of my CBs.  I wonder if it is luck of the draw or quality control with Phram and Bosch. 

10 foot spray pattern!! I bet that oil leak left a slippery road slick on your ride.  Yikes! 

[Airborne 82nd]

I read where some people found the oring to be too thin even with the OE canister type. But not with a genuine Honda filter.

[mkoski]

I haven't had issues with my spin-off filters on both of my CBs.  I wonder if it is luck of the draw or quality control with Phram and Bosch. 

10 foot spray pattern!! I bet that oil leak left a slippery road slick on your ride.  Yikes! 

It was this guy, famous for causing problems I have learned:



Fortunately that oil blow-out occurred in the garage. I never saw/noticed the oil leak while riding.

[Don R]

 I'd be surprised if it didn't wipe a cam lobe and rocker, or the aluminum the cam rides on. Checking the lash will tell the story of the cam lobes/rocker surface. If you love this engine and one or more have excessive lash I'd pull it apart with as little running as possible.

[70CB750]

I haven't had issues with my spin-off filters on both of my CBs.  I wonder if it is luck of the draw or quality control with Phram and Bosch. 

10 foot spray pattern!! I bet that oil leak left a slippery road slick on your ride.  Yikes! 

It was this guy, famous for causing problems I have learned:



Fortunately that oil blow-out occurred in the garage. I never saw/noticed the oil leak while riding.

I used that one once and spent year to find a replacement in local chain stores.  AFAIK it is only available from vintagecb750.

[flybox1]

When hot, what is the average pressure generated by the oil pump under normal riding conditions?
(I dont have a pressure gauge on my 750 )
Is that ^^^  pressure enough to blow oil 10' out the side of a filter? (Fluid dynamics is not my thing)
If the answer is NO, couldnt you surmise there is a blockage somewhere in the oiling system which cause added pressure/blowout?

I dunno....this just got me thinking.  I wouldn't jump to the conclusion its the spin-on filter 

[strynboen]

have you not a OIL light ..?

[70CB750]

Hot engine 20psi idling, 60 or so psi riding.

[CycleRanger]

It was this guy, famous for causing problems I have learned:



Fortunately that oil blow-out occurred in the garage. I never saw/noticed the oil leak while riding.

Bingo! That's guilty party in my case as well..

[70CB750]

The oil seal is much thicker on that one than on regular automotive filter.

[mkoski]

Yeah, that oil filter is #$%* and has caused many many people problems. We should do a PSA on it.

I'd be surprised if it didn't wipe a cam lobe and rocker, or the aluminum the cam rides on. Checking the lash will tell the story of the cam lobes/rocker surface. If you love this engine and one or more have excessive lash I'd pull it apart with as little running as possible.

Absolutely, I only ran it shortly to see if all four cylinders were firing.

A couple other things I didnt think about mentioning/asking before are:

1. A decent amount of smoke is now produced from the exhaust while running. This seems normal for its current state but before this happened there also used to be a lot of blue/black smoke on decel. I always assumed I had a valve issue.
2. I occasionally (semi-frequently) get a backfire through the carbs at mid-range RPM. Is this a valve issue too? Or cam?
3. How can you test the rings' integrity to ensure the issue is ONLY with the valves (top end) not the piston/ring assembly? If I can learn this then I can skip pulling the jugs. Or maybe I can inspect the cylinder walls to ensure no scoring/defects?

[70CB750]

Flip the head upside down and fill combustion chambers with light oil.  If it does not leak, the head is ok.

Actually once the head is off, the valves show what the problem could be.

[Don R]

 Usually the cylinder base gasket will lose it's seal when you remove the head, Not always, but I ended up replacing the base gasket on mine. Check the valve springs closely too, if it had black smoke that's gas, blue is oil, depending on miles you may want to re-ring while it's apart.
 It's hard to stop, I ended up with an 836 kit, porting, a big cam, chamber work, a yoshi look alike pipe, etc.

[mkoski]

Usually the cylinder base gasket will lose it's seal when you remove the head, Not always, but I ended up replacing the base gasket on mine. Check the valve springs closely too, if it had black smoke that's gas, blue is oil, depending on miles you may want to re-ring while it's apart.
 It's hard to stop, I ended up with an 836 kit, porting, a big cam, chamber work, a yoshi look alike pipe, etc.

I know, I'm going to have to restrain myself. I was already looking at 836's...

I only have 16000 miles on the bike, original.

[mkoski]

All,

I have some weekend findings, please join in the build thread, linked in my signature!

[grasscutter]

Hey guys...

Spin on filters do not need to be tightened down as much as you think.  Each filter should have a 1/2 turn, 3/4 turn, or 1 turn, stamped on it somewhere.  This final turn is done after the gasket makes contact.  Hands only, no wrench.  Also should be able to spin it off by hand, when next oil change comes around.

Tighten too much, gasket gets squished and deformed.  Happens more often than you may think. 

And damn sh*t Fram filters with the nut on the housing AINT HELPING!!

Back to subject at hand:
-Didn't see if you've done the 1st two basics.  1- Compression test.  2- set valves.

[mkoski]

Gents,

I have updated my build thread with the results of my top-end rebuild. Please check out my thread (link in my sig) and let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,


MJK

[flybox1]

replied on your build thread

[PeWe]

Lack of oil and metal ticking sound is a good reason for pulling the engine. Continue to run it can increase the price tag.
I guess that the cam bearings migh have suffered a lot with olenty of metal shaving in the cam bearings. fill oil and let that flush the bearing will if there are shavings spread it into the entire engine. Crank/rod bearings too.....

[mkoski]

Lack of oil and metal ticking sound is a good reason for pulling the engine. Continue to run it can increase the price tag.
I guess that the cam bearings migh have suffered a lot with olenty of metal shaving in the cam bearings. fill oil and let that flush the bearing will if there are shavings spread it into the entire engine. Crank/rod bearings too.....

This is the same sound I heard before I pulled the engine. I inspected the entire top end from the valve cover all the way down to the pistons. No excess metal anywhere, all bearings looked to be in quite good shape.