Author Topic: F2 rods vs K rods. Polished, shot peened and balanced.... (Read 3655 times)

MRieck · « **on:** October 23, 2006, 05:11:14 PM »

Sean Condon's rods. Notice the different big end cap on the F2 rod (on the right). Also notice the longer rod bolt on the right. You can see the differnce in the beams after the polish and shot peening(to put the surface in compression). Side pic of the big end shows where material came off to balance

MRieck · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2006, 05:12:24 PM »

...more

scondon · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2006, 05:39:18 PM »

Mike, thanks for posting those pics

I'm sure they look even better in person

I made sure to note which rod went where on the crank when I took them off, but I didn't pay attention to which end faces forward( one side is stamped with a letter ). Will it make a difference which way I put these back on?

MRieck · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2006, 06:00:24 PM »

Quote from: scondon on October 23, 2006, 05:39:18 PM

Mike, thanks for posting those pics I'm sure they look even better in person

I made sure to note which rod went where on the crank when I took them off, but I didn't pay attention to which end faces forward( one side is stamped with a letter ). Will it make a difference which way I put these back on?

I install them with the bearing cut out(tang fits into) towards the rear. You had browns in them. I'd replace the nuts, modify a socket as not to chew up the new ones and plastigauge them. They will work well and will hold up to the 836 kit no problem. Big difference are the bolts which torque to 18.8lbs vs 14.5lbs for K's. You should gain a 1 to 2 tenths with the crank work(polished journals). This will be a nice combination Sean.

scondon · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2006, 06:49:37 PM »

Oooooh, those puppies look much better on my home PC(graphics card)

Thanks for the tips, Mike. I no longer "over obsess" about top end work, having done more than a few now, but since this is my first bottom end job I'm sure I'll pepper the forum with some silly Q's

Browns, huh? guess that answers my question as to whether the Green mark at the bottom of my case is a fluke. Is it OK to re-use the browns, or should I order up new ones?

scondon · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2006, 08:15:35 PM »

Ok, best to read the manual before asking any questions. The Honda '78 750 F/K manual covers the crank and rods pretty well. Looks like I'll be measuring everything to find out which bearings to use. If those browns are still within spec should I replace them anyway?

Mike, the manual covers both K and F models(1978) and only specifies 13-15.9ft-lb torque for the rod bolts. Where are you finding the 18.8ft-lb torque for the F2 rods? Also, the manual has this to say about bearing direction when installing rods:

CAUTION-

Be sure the bearing caps are installed in their
correct location and the bearing pawls point to
the front of the engine.

This would be opposite to what you suggest, or am I misunderstanding it?

MRieck · « **Reply #6 on:** October 24, 2006, 05:28:05 PM »

Quote from: scondon on October 23, 2006, 08:15:35 PM

OK, best to read the manual before asking any questions. The Honda '78 750 F/K manual covers the crank and rods pretty well. Looks like I'll be measuring everything to find out which bearings to use. If those browns are still within spec should I replace them anyway?

Mike, the manual covers both K and F models(1978) and only specifies 13-15.9ft-lb torque for the rod bolts. Where are you finding the 18.8ft-lb torque for the F2 rods? Also, the manual has this to say about bearing direction when installing rods:

CAUTION-

Be sure the bearing caps are installed in their
correct location and the bearing pawls point to
the front of the engine.

This would be opposite to what you suggest, or am I misunderstanding it?

OK. First, the torque figure comes from the Honda factory manual F3 supplement. I have the entire OEM Honda CB manual with every single supplement. Second.....which manual is that from(pawls in front) as the factory manual makes no mention or 2 editons of Clymers. I assume you have a Haynes? I've always installed towards the back though in checking F3 rods taken off a crank they are indeed pointed forward. Hmmmm. I can only guess because the main pawls are torwards the rear BUT every picture I've every seen shows the rod bearing cut outs towards the rear. As for the bearings...they are toast (lots of crap embedded and.....just too tight) THOUGH I would get 1 set of brown and gauge them on the 4 journals. I like to run the the rods on the loose end. The last time I took my engine apart the rod bearings were perfect....no wear...nothing embedded. Greens might work better, run cooler and give a very small increase in HP (very small).

scondon · « **Reply #7 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:22:24 PM »

Figured you had all the data sheets. The info I'm getting is from the Official Honda Shop Manual for 1978 750 K8 and F3. I got it in .pdf form from Terry long ago and it might even be available on this site. Since it covers both models I figured there would be some omissions considering the F3. When in doubt, ask someone who knows, thanks Mike

I'll order up one set of Browns this week. Thanks for the tip.

MRieck · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:28:32 PM »

Quote from: scondon on October 24, 2006, 06:22:24 PM

Figured you had all the data sheets. The info I'm getting is from the Official Honda Shop Manual for 1978 750 K8 and F3. I got it in .pdf form from Terry long ago and it might even be available on this site. Since it covers both models I figured there would be some omissions considering the F3. When in doubt, ask someone who knows, thanks Mike

I'll order up one set of Browns this week. Thanks for the tip.

I'm going to check my manual carefully Sean. I've just never seen that info in the American version. Mine comes in the official binder etc too!!

scondon · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:36:40 PM »

I'll send a CD of the manual with your check

I trust that your big, fat shop manual spanning all the years, and with the tech update sheets, has more info. But you can never have too many pictures

sparty · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:52:21 PM »

Oh man...

Mike,

You really know your stuff.

Sparty

MRieck · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:54:08 PM »

Quote from: sparty on October 24, 2006, 06:52:21 PM

Oh man...

Mike,

You really know your stuff.

Sparty

Thanks...I try.

eldar · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2006, 07:46:15 PM »

You should let us know what you spent and where all you got the work done. SOmeday when I have extra cash, I want to do some of this. I would be nice to know what the cost would be and where it can be done.

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2006, 08:09:29 PM »

I swear one of these days - I'm going for the Carillos and regret not doing it 2 months ago.

100 horsepower and 11,000 rpm shifts -

MRieck · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2006, 04:29:42 AM »

Those things would easily handle 300HP. Just about everthing else would break but who's concerned with the little things.

scondon · « **Reply #15 on:** October 26, 2006, 07:56:19 PM »

Quote from: MRieck on October 24, 2006, 05:28:05 PM

Quote from: scondon on October 23, 2006, 08:15:35 PM

Mike, the manual covers both K and F models(1978) and only specifies 13-15.9ft-lb torque for the rod bolts. Where are you finding the 18.8ft-lb torque for the F2 rods? Also, the manual has this to say about bearing direction when installing rods:

OK. First, the torque figure comes from the Honda factory manual F3 supplement. I have the entire OEM Honda CB manual with every single supplement.

Doh! There it is on the last page. I've got the "all inclusive" shop manual too but never looked at the very last page. Always looked at the '77 F2 supplement which does not have that torque spec( in my book ). Is it really only the '78 F3 rods that are "special"?

BTW, I really just wanted to bring your pics back up top 'cause I didn't want to keep paging back for another look

scondon · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2006, 07:42:26 PM »

The rods arrived today,Mike. As usuall the pics just do not do the parts justice. They look brand spankin' new...er, I mean "better than new,...better"

Ya know why I like sending you my parts for work? 'cause each time I open up the box I don't even recognize them as the parts I sent ya. All the care and work put in looks like what you would want if it was going into one of your own bikes. If there's a flaw in the part that a "noob" like myself would overlook, your quick to point it out. And I don't EVER get the feeling that you'd let something "iffy" get by just to get the work out.

Yep, just got four balanced,polished,shotpeened rods and that all important "peace of mind", all for much less than the cost of two new rods from Honda

jtb · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2006, 07:54:29 PM »

Quote from: scondon on October 30, 2006, 07:42:26 PM

The rods arrived today,Mike. As usuall the pics just do not do the parts justice. They look brand spankin' new...er, I mean "better than new,...better"

Ya know why I like sending you my parts for work? 'cause each time I open up the box I don't even recognize them as the parts I sent ya. All the care and work put in looks like what you would want if it was going into one of your own bikes. If there's a flaw in the part that a "noob" like myself would overlook, your quick to point it out. And I don't EVER get the feeling that you'd let something "iffy" get by just to get the work out.

/quote]

Second That!

CrisPDuk · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2006, 09:57:13 PM »

Quote from: Ilbikes on October 24, 2006, 08:09:29 PM

I swear one of these days - I'm going for the Carillos and regret not doing it 2 months ago.

100 horsepower and 11,000 rpm shifts -

I put some of them in my VW Golf (Rabbit to you yanks) engine many years ago when I rebuilt it. Horsepower-wise it didn't need them, but it needed new rods, and if you're getting anyway, get the best

They didn't seemed to mind the odd missed gearshift and 10,000 rpm buzz here and there either, which was lucky

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2006, 10:10:55 PM »

Fancy throwing money away like that, you could have bought some good players for your football team

Sam.

CrisPDuk · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2006, 11:13:23 PM »

Why would a team packed full of great players need any who are merely good

MRieck · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2006, 05:56:27 AM »

Quote from: scondon on October 30, 2006, 07:42:26 PM

The rods arrived today,Mike. As usuall the pics just do not do the parts justice. They look brand spankin' new...er, I mean "better than new,...better"

Ya know why I like sending you my parts for work? 'cause each time I open up the box I don't even recognize them as the parts I sent ya. All the care and work put in looks like what you would want if it was going into one of your own bikes. If there's a flaw in the part that a "noob" like myself would overlook, your quick to point it out. And I don't EVER get the feeling that you'd let something "iffy" get by just to get the work out.

Yep, just got four balanced,polished,shotpeened rods and that all important "peace of mind", all for much less than the cost of two new rods from Honda

Thanks Sean and John. I approach my work as though it was for my bike. It's been a pretty succesful, though sometimes frustrating, attitude.

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2006, 11:49:51 AM »

Quote from: CrisPDuk on October 30, 2006, 11:13:23 PM

Why would a team packed full of great players need any who are merely good

Have you spotted the mysterious badger yet ?

Sam.

MRieck · « **Reply #23 on:** June 16, 2009, 10:15:53 PM »

Quote from: sparty on October 24, 2006, 06:52:21 PM

Oh man...

Mike,

You really know your stuff.

Sparty

Thanks Art....again.

MRieck · « **Reply #24 on:** June 16, 2009, 10:19:11 PM »

Quote from: scondon on October 23, 2006, 08:15:35 PM

Ok, best to read the manual before asking any questions. The Honda '78 750 F/K manual covers the crank and rods pretty well. Looks like I'll be measuring everything to find out which bearings to use. If those browns are still within spec should I replace them anyway?

Mike, the manual covers both K and F models(1978) and only specifies 13-15.9ft-lb torque for the rod bolts. Where are you finding the 18.8ft-lb torque for the F2 rods? Also, the manual has this to say about bearing direction when installing rods:

CAUTION-

Be sure the bearing caps are installed in their
correct location and the bearing pawls point to
the front of the engine.

This would be opposite to what you suggest, or am I misunderstanding it?

I still find this interesting as Carrillo's etc recommend the opposite....and I can see why. Comments?

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #25 on:** June 16, 2009, 11:33:00 PM »

Downward force of the crank turn holds em down and in place?

JLeather · « **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2009, 05:11:37 AM »

Mike,
Is there an option for upgraded bolts for the K-rods anymore? I know a couple companies used to.

MRieck · « **Reply #27 on:** June 17, 2009, 07:01:22 AM »

John.....I use new F2/3 bolts. They are the only option I've found.

bryanj · « **Reply #28 on:** June 17, 2009, 08:53:45 AM »

As an extra to using the correct socket to not mark the nuts also make sure you dont leave it on the last one you tighten, buddy of mine did and it was the first time i ever seen the alloy crankcase punched outwards by the sprocket

bwaller · « **Reply #29 on:** June 17, 2009, 09:31:29 AM »

I believe Soos was going to use GSXR1000 rods in a 650 build, and I wonder about those bolts. I suppose they're a larger diameter. I'll send him a note.

News:

Author Topic: F2 rods vs K rods. Polished, shot peened and balanced.... (Read 3655 times)

eldar