Topic: Reign of the V-twins

[Retro Rocket]

No mate, don't mention politics, guns, or God here, unless you wanna face the wrath of Bob Wessner, ha ha! (sorry Bob, I'll be good)

I actually like the old Corvairs, but I can understand what Ralph was on about, they weren't the best car to roll off the production line, here's a clip from Top Gear USA's "Most Dangerous Cars" episode, which highlights some real handling issues...........

I've raced Both early and late model Corvairs several times. They're either doing on purpose or he's a complete idiot. That is literally one of the dumbest videos I have ever seen with a Corvair in it.

He did it on purpose; he locked up the parking brakes to throw it into a slide. When a rear swing-axle car, such as a pre-65 Corvair, pre-68 VW, or early Porsche (I don't know when they abandoned the swing-axle) "weight-jacks" in a turn, the result is a sudden loss of rear wheel traction, and the car "usually" spins out with no smoke or drama, although bugs were more prone to rolling over on their tops than 'Vairs. The later Corvairs had a rear suspension similar to a Corvette, and the limiting factor for hard cornering was the lack of weight on the front wheels, so lots of guys added ballast into the front "trunk". I knew one guy that used a bare small block Chevy for auto-cross.
Terry, I would feel safer in a Corvair than on a Road King:
http://www.kpho.com/clip/6511831/cbs-5-investigates-harley-motorcycles-known-for-death-wobble

The corvair doesn't even make it into the worst American top ten cars  ...

[Terry in Australia]

Terry, I would feel safer in a Corvair than on a Road King:
 

Well I think most of us would feel "safer" in a car than on a bike Scott, even a Corvair maybe, but we don't ride bikes to feel safe, do we? Cheers, Terry.

[Ravie]

Taha, The Corvair has been called the Poor man's Porsche for years. A way to have a rear engine sporty car without the cost. That's all.

Corvairs have been racing since they came out...and I would like to make sure I mention that Don Yenko's first "Yenko" car was the Corvair. To this day there are still late models racing in vintage SCCA classes and *winning* against those old Porches, Vettes, etc...

In 1971 The NHTSA did a full safety/crash test of the early model Corvair. Their conclusion?  It was just as safe as anything else on the road and not any more prone to rolling than anything else.

BUT by 1965 The rear suspension had been fully redesigned to have fully independent rear suspension rather than swingarms (so now there were 2 u-joints per axle rather than one on the inner side) and the trailing arms were straight rather than cocked A-arms like the earlies have. The late models are far superior in handling. Unfortunately the Mustang and Camaro were coming out and with Ralph's silly book and the sporty new V-8 cars, no one wanted Corvairs anymore and sales dwindled until they made a mere 6000 of them in 69 and ended production. All said and done they made somewhere near 1.8 million Corvairs.

Most of what people think is wrong with the Corvair is incorrect. Either silly rumors they heard 30-40 years ago or just stuff that has been said since then and people just regurgitate it for fun. I've heard some real doozies and usually just let people sound like idiots at car shows. The reality is they are economical (not a lot of 60's cars getting 20mpg), fun to work on, handle very well with 40/60 weight distribution and definitely fun to race!  :-)  The aftermarket is still strong for them and nearly every part can be found for them! 

Here's the 64 I'm turning into a track car...  it's also my DD.

[Bailgang]

Most of what people think is wrong with the Corvair is incorrect. Either silly rumors they heard 30-40 years ago or just stuff that has been said since then and people just regurgitate it for fun.

I'd have to agree with that especially when stories get exaggerated , it's kind of like the story my oldest brother told me about how taking a cb750 past 6k rpm will result in a snapped cam chain which will promptly rip the engine block in half. I guess Honda did have cam chain issues with the 750 at first but no where near as bad as he described. Another older brother of mine used to have a 185 hp turbo Corvair (Monza,Corsa don't remember) back in the late 60's early 70's and he says his never had the issues so many talk about, the only issue he had with his was keeping the engine tuned with its primitive turbo setup.

[bear]

Terry, I would feel safer in a Corvair than on a Road King:
http://www.kpho.com/clip/6511831/cbs-5-investigates-harley-motorcycles-known-for-death-wobble   

Well there you go.
I had put that down to a quirky little handling trait.

Cheers,
Brian

[Terry in Australia]

"Most of what people think is wrong with Harley's is incorrect. Either silly rumors they heard 30-40 years ago or just stuff that has been said since then and people just regurgitate it for fun. I've heard some real doozies and usually just let people sound like idiots on bike forums."

[Terry in Australia]

Taha, The Corvair has been called the Poor man's Porsche for years. A way to have a rear engine sporty car without the cost. That's all.

Fair enough mate, my friend Dobbo has had a Volksy Karman Ghia since the late 1970's, which he bought from the original owner. He's a "ditherer", and after 36 years and at least two paint jobs, he's no closer to having it back on the road then he was 20 years ago.

In that time he bought a Mazda 13B Rotary engine and conversion kit, then a Corvair engine, both of which he installed and ran, but never drove. It's now got it's original engine in it, which is a shame, with the Corvair engine, it would have been a weapon. Cheers, Terry.  

[calj737]

"Most of what people think is wrong with Harley's is incorrect. Either silly rumors they heard 30-40 years ago or just stuff that has been said since then and people just regurgitate it for fun. I've heard some real doozies and usually just let people sound like idiots on bike forums."

I think that stems from when Harley was owned briefly by AMF and they swapped over to metric engines. But then again, I could be repeating an Internet rumor.

[CBGhia]

Fair enough mate, my friend Dobbo has had a Volksy Karman Ghia since the late 1970's, which he bought from the original owner. He's a "ditherer", and after 36 years and at least two paint jobs, he's no closer to having it back on the road then he was 20 years ago.

In that time he bought a Mazda 13B Rotary engine and conversion kit, then a Corvair engine, both of which he installed and ran, but never drove. It's now got it's original engine in it, which is a shame, with the Corvair engine, it would have been a weapon. Cheers, Terry.

With the corvair engine, he would have had to flip the ring and pinion because the rotate backward from the VW motor. 
I have a Ghia.  Bought it in 98.  Runs and drives, though I need to get some new tires for it very soon. 

[eigenvector]

"Most of what people think is wrong with Harley's is incorrect. Either silly rumors they heard 30-40 years ago or just stuff that has been said since then and people just regurgitate it for fun. I've heard some real doozies and usually just let people sound like idiots on bike forums."

I think that stems from when Harley was owned briefly by AMF and they swapped over to metric engines. But then again, I could be repeating an Internet rumor.

That Evo motor also wrecked their image, doesn't matter that it was sorted out eventually.  So far as I know the Evo motor is rock solid - just not the first gen.

[754]

I worked on HD engines in the eighties and know of no metric ones?  ?
 But Sporty rear drum brakes  had metric bearings and I believe axle size too.
 I was not aware of early evolution issues?   Except for cam bearing and breather.. Far less grief than some issues that plague the TC motors..

[eigenvector]

That was the scuttlebutt - of course I don't know first hand myself.  Harley seemed to have sorted it out soon enough - it may have simply been sour grapes from the guys who cut their teeth on shovelheads and the like.  But that's all it takes

[Terry in Australia]

Yep, I've never heard anything bad about Evo engines, except that they last about twice as long as shovels, which probably pissed off the Harley repair shops..........

[BPellerine]

having been around when it was not all that common to see Harleys,and see the Japanese bikes all but stop everyone in their tracks and take notice back in the day without really knowing it was happening till I read that the big three british makers were stopping production.and then to see Harley influence the industry to the point where Honda made a "chopper" the fury,I would not have predicted that,my friends used many insulting names for Harleys and most v twins without ever driving one,they are not the bike they were made out to be,we did not know how to maintain them for the most part.I am not loyal to any one brand of bike but it is hard to dismiss a maker who has been around so long making v twins or paint mixers as my buddy called them.bill

[Desert-SOHC]

Having owned Harley for most of my life I can say that the "rumors" that are repeated are mostly garbage. My panhead was a PITA and needed constant attention to be kept in good running condition but was pretty reliable for it old tech. My 89 FLHS EVO was an absolute joy to own. It never did anything wrong and was easy to work on and parts are everywhere and will be pretty much forever. I sold it with 93,000+ miles on it with no major repairs. My 2 Road Kings and 3 Ultra's Twin Cams were pretty much the same as the EVO with no complaints. The Harley bagger is the ultimate "road couch" for going long distance, with there laid back riding position, and sitting down in the bike seating it is very comfy for doing LOTSA miles. As for the "metric" touring machines I'm limited to 2 Goldwings and an early Kawa Voyager 1200 XII, while they were great bikes, fast, handled well, and reliable, they were nowhere near as comfy as the HD.

Harley has done a VERY good job of marketing themselves and that's why the masses think that they have to own one to be cool. When in fact they are just zip-code riders and aren't really riders. Out of all the people I know that have HD's.....about 5% really get out and ride them the rest seem to be happy going under 3,000 miles a year and think that they are bikers.....LOL. I average 10,000+ miles a year on my bikes and way back when it was closer to 40,000+ a year.

Just my take.....as long as you have the nuts to ride on 2 wheels.........your good with me! 

[eigenvector]

I worked on HD engines in the eighties and know of no metric ones?  ?
 But Sporty rear drum brakes  had metric bearings and I believe axle size too.
 I was not aware of early evolution issues?   Except for cam bearing and breather.. Far less grief than some issues that plague the TC motors..

I believe it was a host of case and block issues.  Square corners cracking, holes too close to the edges, if I'm not mistaken they used helicoil inserts at the factory for certain mount points.

Same problem every manufacture deals with when launching a new product line

[754]

What is there a problem with using Helicoils?  Still uses them on their chainsaw. Cylinders,  they hold up well.
 Don't recall seeing many  helicoils in HD motors, except shovel head exhaust bolts.. They should have used them at the factory..or a stud..
 See a lot of heli coils in CB750 heads.

[Terry in Australia]

Having owned Harley for most of my life I can say that the "rumors" that are repeated are mostly garbage. My panhead was a PITA and needed constant attention to be kept in good running condition but was pretty reliable for it old tech. My 89 FLHS EVO was an absolute joy to own. It never did anything wrong and was easy to work on and parts are everywhere and will be pretty much forever. I sold it with 93,000+ miles on it with no major repairs. My 2 Road Kings and 3 Ultra's Twin Cams were pretty much the same as the EVO with no complaints. The Harley bagger is the ultimate "road couch" for going long distance, with there laid back riding position, and sitting down in the bike seating it is very comfy for doing LOTSA miles. As for the "metric" touring machines I'm limited to 2 Goldwings and an early Kawa Voyager 1200 XII, while they were great bikes, fast, handled well, and reliable, they were nowhere near as comfy as the HD.

Harley has done a VERY good job of marketing themselves and that's why the masses think that they have to own one to be cool. When in fact they are just zip-code riders and aren't really riders. Out of all the people I know that have HD's.....about 5% really get out and ride them the rest seem to be happy going under 3,000 miles a year and think that they are bikers.....LOL. I average 10,000+ miles a year on my bikes and way back when it was closer to 40,000+ a year.

Just my take.....as long as you have the nuts to ride on 2 wheels.........your good with me! 

Thanks for posting mate, it's always good to hear from someone who actually knows what he's talking about, as opposed to the internet "Harley-phobes" out there............

[bear]

What is there a problem with using Helicoils? 
 See a lot of heli coils in CB750 heads.

Not just the heads.
There's no way I would run a new set of cases without inserting helicoils through it.
Stripped or stretched case threads are the primary cause of head/base gasket failure for us.
That old alloy ain't in it's prime anymore and we tend to remove a fair bit of it for our application.

Cheers,
Brian

[Terry in Australia]

That's true Brian, and I can remember my cuz had every size helicoil kit in his shop (he was a Suzuki dealer, but he fixed just as many Honda's there) back in the 1970's and 80's, back then they were the only way you could save the threads in anything made out of aluminium, timeserts, keenserts etc, were years away, so if it wasn't for helicoils, there'd be a lot less bikes on the road. Cheers, Terry.

[Bailgang]

During our trip to Tennessee a few weeks ago I would estimate that 80% of the bikes my wife and I saw on the road were V-twin powered and the vast majority of those we HD's. It's no doubt HD has done a stellar job with their marketing, I've seen 2 HD "shops" so far where there wasn't a bike to be seen in the showroom because they sold nothing but HD related clothing and accessories but regardless of their marketing campaign HD still must be producing bikes of reasonable quality and dependability in order to be selling so many. There does seem to be a love affair with the V-twin here in the US and I do wish there was more diversity but that's the way it is here. Are they a better bike? Well that all depends on what your definition of better is and the V-twins obviously suits the needs of the majority of riders here. I myself have no desire to own a V-twin of any make in fact I'm kicking the idea around of selling my 83 Gold Wing and looking at maybe an ST1100 or 1300, yeah I know I'm a glutton for punishment wanting a bike with the complexity of a V-4 but a sport touring bike like the ST is what would suit me. That doesn't mean I'd never ever want an HD or any other V-twin, I just have no desire for one at the moment.

[eigenvector]

My experience with bikes is that they're all pretty much the same in the end.  They have strengths and weaknesses in different areas.  I'm not a fan of cruisers or baggers or black and chrome, but if the bikes were junk they would have been tossed out a long time ago.  That so many people ride them says they aren't.
I've never viewed any of my bikes as a 'lifestyle', just an excellent mode of transportation.

[Killer Canary]

Terry, you should live here fora few years and see what the vast majority of harley OWNERS are truly like. Note Frank, my use of the word majority instead of all, and I know, crotch rockets, crotch rockets, crotch rockets, but I haven't seen or heard one of those in months.
Terry, it's not the machines, it's the people.
Can't you get that?

[BPellerine]

as for the hd dealer showrooms they look like a boutique acc store with a few bikes in strategic positions,you really have to look for the parts counter at the ones in my area.I have a sportster and love riding it but will never buy into all of the clothing ,acc that I see in the stores,if someone does not know what I am riding that is good with me,same with any bike I have owned.billp

[Killer Canary]

If all  owner's were like you, there wouldn't BE any harley bashing threads.
It's not the machinery, it's the people.