Author Topic: CycleX HiPo cam chain tensioner & primary chain tensioner (Read 37572 times)

bear · « **Reply #125 on:** February 02, 2016, 02:56:43 PM »

As a matter of interest we are using Brent's manual primary adjuster in one of our SOHC HY-VO motors.

Cheers,
Brian

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #126 on:** February 02, 2016, 04:01:23 PM »

Quote from: Captain on February 02, 2016, 01:53:04 PM

The overall curvature and amount it protrudes into the chain path is excessive and I recommend you reduce it. This will also allow more room for the tensioner side which is required in order to build a workable adjustment mechanism. Also make both the entry to the front curved guide more closely aligned to the natural chain path bearing in mind that the chain tends to "throw" out further as it leaves the cam sprocket even when it is under load. It would also be advisable to increase the vertical height of the guide so it overlaps the sprocket at a point where the roller of the chain is still fully seated in the sprocket. If this is not factored into the design it will show up as heavy wear at the entry area of the slipper. (These points are incorporated into the design of my Curved Guide and AHM Tensioner used in the DOHC engine).
But essentially the Cad drawing design is correct and will provide the capacity and life that has been missing since these engines came into being.

Captain

Thanks for the help!
Problem is that chain has constant length. If I move slider back(decrease the curvature) tensioner has to go in. The distance between chains will stay the same.

Good point of increasing the horizontal length of guides.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #127 on:** February 02, 2016, 04:04:45 PM »

Quote from: MessnerMoto on February 02, 2016, 04:01:23 PM

Quote from: Captain on February 02, 2016, 01:53:04 PM

The overall curvature and amount it protrudes into the chain path is excessive and I recommend you reduce it. This will also allow more room for the tensioner side which is required in order to build a workable adjustment mechanism. Also make both the entry to the front curved guide more closely aligned to the natural chain path bearing in mind that the chain tends to "throw" out further as it leaves the cam sprocket even when it is under load. It would also be advisable to increase the vertical height of the guide so it overlaps the sprocket at a point where the roller of the chain is still fully seated in the sprocket. If this is not factored into the design it will show up as heavy wear at the entry area of the slipper. (These points are incorporated into the design of my Curved Guide and AHM Tensioner used in the DOHC engine).
But essentially the Cad drawing design is correct and will provide the capacity and life that has been missing since these engines came into being.

Captain

Thanks for the help!
Problem is that chain has constant length. If I move slider back(decrease the curvature) tensioner has to go in. The distance between chains will stay the same.

Good point of increasing the horizontal length of guides.

Maybe with a modified tensioner and guide, a new length cam chain should be used to have everything perfect..?

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #128 on:** February 02, 2016, 04:32:01 PM »

In CAD picture chain is with 96 links. Those 2 added links are introducing that much of a curvature. With 94 links you can see previous picture... It is almost straight....

bwaller · « **Reply #129 on:** February 02, 2016, 04:33:06 PM »

This picture was sent to me by an engine builder in the Netherlands. You are probably correct about the cause but regardless he isn't using this anymore.

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #130 on:** February 03, 2016, 08:08:11 AM »

This will work and it will go in to my engine.

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #131 on:** February 03, 2016, 09:46:53 AM »

Oh hell yes

Old Scrambler · « **Reply #132 on:** February 03, 2016, 02:47:37 PM »

That design DOES look very NICE..............what material will be used on the sliders and the idler-sprocket?

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #133 on:** February 03, 2016, 07:48:15 PM »

Here you go, the one on left is old packaging from 79-80's.With the new barcode sticker, it must have been returned to Honda! Now to compare the two! Bill

PeWe · « **Reply #134 on:** February 08, 2016, 03:18:10 AM »

Another variant of bad tensioner. Cheap aftermarket kit labeled Made in Taiwan if I remember correctly, purchased 2012
I guess the rubber wheel cracked in 2 halves after around 4000kms. I noticed that the tensioner did not release the chain as usual when removed. Rubbers blocked the tensioner. I have to look for metal flakes when the metal have wear.

I think I'll use Honda original. But the earlier mentioned steel wheels might be something too. No rubber parts in oil pump mesh.
I have warned people in SOHC Bikes forum too.

68 sold today. Several that use this solution?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231576401099?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Photo: Black wire is around the chain so I can fish it out of the case. Not involved in the bad tensioner

gschuld · « **Reply #135 on:** February 08, 2016, 05:04:55 AM »

Quote from: PeWe on February 08, 2016, 03:18:10 AM

I think I'll use Honda original. But the earlier mentioned steel wheels might be something too. No rubber parts in oil pump mesh.

68 sold today. Several that use this solution?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231576401099?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

PEWE,

I just pulled the trigger on a set of those needle bearing steel wheels myself last night. Small world. It was far from a well considered and informed decision, but enough people I respect seem to think well enough of them that I want to at least have a set on the shelf. I have a big bore drag motor going together soon, so with luck, there will be some very hard use feedback available after this racing season is over. I thing Billy has a set as well.

There is also a very fancy and pricey set from Cappollini (spelling?) on ebay geared toward road racing.

George

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #136 on:** February 08, 2016, 06:03:59 PM »

I'm about to put a set in Purple Rain!

turboguzzi · « **Reply #137 on:** February 17, 2016, 11:43:44 PM »

i second the question here to Messner and Captain: what materials are using/planning to use? In my CB500/4 racer i ended up using a stock CBR600 curved tensioner simply because i couldnt get precise info on what material to mill a custom tensioner from.

Captain · « **Reply #138 on:** February 18, 2016, 01:36:24 AM »

Quote from: turboguzzi on February 17, 2016, 11:43:44 PM

i second the question here to Messner and Captain: what materials are using/planning to use? In my CB500/4 racer i ended up using a stock CBR600 curved tensioner simply because i couldnt get precise info on what material to mill a custom tensioner from.

As I manufacture a very successful set-up for the DOHC engine, the material I use is commercially sensitive and I will not disclose. Please do not be offended by this particular answer as I am more than willing to help in many other ways and areas such as the developments, designs and practical solutions I have experienced building and running Honda Superbikes.

Captain

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #139 on:** February 18, 2016, 05:06:46 AM »

Completely understandable.

First I was thinking of PA6 + MoS2 but... Better options are
PA6.6 and PA4.6... PA4.6 being better. Even better If you can source PA4.6 with graphite filament....

Not a secret but I think some form of PA4.6 is used in most modern engines... Captain maybe knows better material. I am not an expert here just doing some research...

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #140 on:** February 18, 2016, 05:42:25 AM »

Very understandable. Captain did his homework. .....now you are, and doing a great job, keep us posted, Bill

turboguzzi · « **Reply #141 on:** February 18, 2016, 08:41:01 AM »

Quote from: MessnerMoto on February 18, 2016, 05:06:46 AM

Completely understandable.

First I was thinking of PA6 + MoS2 but... Better options are
PA6.6 and PA4.6... PA4.6 being better. Even better If you can source PA4.6 with graphite filament....

Not a secret but I think some form of PA4.6 is used in most modern engines... Captain maybe knows better material. I am not an expert here just doing some research...

I like the " i think " part

i posted a similar question also in some serious tuning forums and nobody could come with a definitive answer.... also remember that the crystalline structure of an injected part will always be different to that of extruded plates.
I work in medical product design and once brought a suzuki GSXR tensioner to one of our plastic material experts.....he wasnt so sure what it was. We are more into PC ABS, PP and less into the tecno-polymers / heavy duty stuff.

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #142 on:** February 18, 2016, 08:58:26 AM »

When I say "i think" I actually want to say http://www.plasticstoday.com/articles/polyamide-46-grade-deployed-automotive-low-friction-timing-system-20160111a

I always do my research part...

And I talk with some engineers, PA6 will do the trick and it was used for guides... Of corse it is not as good as PA4.6 but you don't need always the best stuff...

turboguzzi · « **Reply #143 on:** February 18, 2016, 09:55:38 AM »

main problem is that the stanyl 341 material is in granular form for injection molding.. if you manage to find some in 25-30mm plates for machining, let me know

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #144 on:** February 18, 2016, 01:00:15 PM »

http://www.reinshagen.de/_start.asp?cid=1&app=24&lmode=large&gf=03&wg=0310&ag=0310
at the bottom of the page.... But PA6 will do

turboguzzi · « **Reply #145 on:** February 18, 2016, 03:18:52 PM »

danke! good info, the 30% GF reinforced sounds very good. found a maker in italy but only sells 3 meter long plates. does your guy sell smaller quantities?
mein Deutsch ist sehr schwach zu verstehen....

BTW, i have to say that Captain's desing makes more sense to me.... in your design also the top of the right tensioner has no more room to move for further adjustment, it will press against the top chain sprocket, nicht wa?

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #146 on:** February 19, 2016, 01:18:18 AM »

Ask for PA 6.6 GSM... PA 6.6 filled with MoS2 aka Nylatron... Don use one with glass fibers(Elatron)(This is my opinion not confirmed by anybody else... I was thinking in direction of... you don't want glass particles in engine... not sure maybe it is not a problem). Nylatron is used in cam chain guides in cars... Not sure for Elatron

I will provide a link when I find a good source of a PA in Eu...

This is not final design you are seeing in pictures

... I made more room... But good point

turboguzzi · « **Reply #147 on:** February 19, 2016, 05:08:44 AM »

Sure, send a link if you find somebody for low quantities.

regarding your design, I still cant understand why the roller wheel at the bottom is needed at all.... two simple curved runs like captain's design is how all modern engines are.

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #148 on:** February 19, 2016, 06:21:13 AM »

Because you need to increase the number of links from OEM 94 to 96 for curvature. But adding 2 links makes this

Opposite sides of chain are to close. Also tensioner is not supported. But basically it will not work...

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #149 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:28:29 AM »

I found PA 4.6 and I did buy all this guy had for 40eu... It will be enough for cam and primary chain guides/tensioners....
The only problem is that he has plates of 35mmX20mm. I will have to modify just a cam guide to fit in that constrains.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/7570-PA-4-6-Polyamid-rotbraun-35mm-x-20mm-Lange-nach-Bedarf-/321650465727?hash=item4ae3dc9bbf:g:wt4AAOSw1vlUw8nf

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Author Topic: CycleX HiPo cam chain tensioner & primary chain tensioner (Read 37572 times)