Author Topic: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine  (Read 127153 times)

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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #175 on: September 05, 2015, 04:20:50 PM »
The scratch could probably disappear with a wrinkle black scheme on a set of covers. Just a thought.

Very nice work and enjoy the ride. We are not going to have a ton of hot days before fall weather makes itself felt...being September already.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #176 on: September 05, 2015, 04:30:04 PM »
Went for a short ride.  I'm planning to get a long one in Monday.  Here in California we get to ride year around -- we just have no stinkin' water!!  We will likely stay in the 80s through mid October.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline rb550four

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #177 on: September 05, 2015, 04:58:25 PM »
My, that's a pretty motor.
What is the color scheme for the top end?
                    Ain't your Dad's 650 for sure, lookin' goood.
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #178 on: September 05, 2015, 05:08:02 PM »
My, that's a pretty motor.
What is the color scheme for the top end?
                    Ain't your Dad's 650 for sure, lookin' goood.

Thanks, RB.  Likely black for the cylinders and head (for some contrast) and then the cast iron again for the valve covers.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #179 on: September 05, 2015, 05:43:26 PM »
FYI - the 10 short cylinder studs from two APE 550 kits work fine, but the long studs from the 550 kit are too short!  I am trying to have 2 heavy duty 750 long studs turned down the right length.  If not, I have a pair of NOS long 650 cylinder bolts (hard to find).
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #180 on: September 05, 2015, 05:57:00 PM »
Don,
That motor is sexy!  Really nice job on the paint.  I'm really enjoying this build thread and getting a lot of good ideas for the 550 from you.

Ron
Ron

Stella - Logan's Senior Project    78 750K http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141761.0

Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafes    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147787.0.html

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #181 on: September 05, 2015, 06:03:14 PM »
Thanks, Ron.  That 500 must be getting close.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #182 on: September 05, 2015, 06:59:33 PM »
Thanks, Ron.  That 500 must be getting close.

Bits and pieces, yes.  I'm hoping to get a lot of it buttoned up this week while my wife is out of town.  (She still doesn't know about either of the bikes downstairs yet!  ::) )  I thought I'd spring the surprise on her when she sees 2 motorcycles sitting in the garage and goes, "We have 2 motorcycles now?"  I'll get to say, "Nope...three...There's another one downstairs, too!"  ;D
Ron

Stella - Logan's Senior Project    78 750K http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141761.0

Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafes    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147787.0.html

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #183 on: September 05, 2015, 07:29:13 PM »
Thanks, Ron.  That 500 must be getting close.

Bits and pieces, yes.  I'm hoping to get a lot of it buttoned up this week while my wife is out of town.  (She still doesn't know about either of the bikes downstairs yet!  ::) )  I thought I'd spring the surprise on her when she sees 2 motorcycles sitting in the garage and goes, "We have 2 motorcycles now?"  I'll get to say, "Nope...three...There's another one downstairs, too!"  ;D

You're a brave soul, Ron. I guess it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #184 on: September 05, 2015, 07:47:00 PM »
Not really.  I'm fairly tight with spending money on myself as a general rule.  And I don't question all those pair of $600 and $700 shoes and $1000 purses.  If she were to question my spending, I'd just point out that I saw a brand new pair of Gucci shoes in a box in our closet this week that had a $450 price tag on them.  Pretty sure that would be the end of the money discussion.
Ron

Stella - Logan's Senior Project    78 750K http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141761.0

Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafes    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147787.0.html

Offline FunJimmy

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #185 on: September 05, 2015, 09:22:29 PM »
You're a brave soul, Ron. I guess it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

Not judging, just commenting. It's sad that we even have to have these conversations with our partners. We all have different values and priorities that impact the family finances and that's a fact but we should try to respect and value those choices too. It would be a lot better for everyone to come clean on the spending and share in the excitement that the spending brings even if it's just a pair of shoes. If nothing else, the sex should be better. Just saying!
You never see a motorcycle parked outside of a psychiatrist's office!

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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=27159.0

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #186 on: September 05, 2015, 10:26:18 PM »


A friend and his wife had an agreement where if they were going to spend more than $200 they discussed it with their partner first. This was in the mid-80s which today would probably be $350-400, maybe $500
Depending upon the economy impact to their jobs and salary curves.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 03:15:09 PM by RAF122S »
David- back in the desert SW!

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #187 on: September 05, 2015, 11:44:17 PM »
Luckily or not, my girlfriend and I do not share our individual expenses.  She rolls her eyes at my motorcycle obsession and wonders why I need another one but doesn't really care.   ::) ::)  There are worse, unhealthy interests to have. 

I do not question her clothing, etc. purchases either.

I wasn't expecting the sex ed lesson, David -- but I agree with everything you said!  ;D

1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #188 on: September 06, 2015, 01:34:43 AM »
Don,
Sorry for derailing a great build thread.

Suffice it to say my wife and I have a great relationship.  We've been married 24 years and we actually get along great.  But we are in a unique situation in that she travels about 60 or 70% of the time and is often gone for 2 to 3 weeks at a time for her job.  We communicate frequently via texts, emails, phone calls and video calls throughout that time.

So motorcycles have become a hobby for me to pass the time in the evenings and weekends while she is gone.  And we are very blessed financially so we don't usually go into details about purchases.  Now, neither of us goes out and buys a car without the consent and/or advice of the other one and I wouldn't go out and purchase a one-time expense motorcycle without talking to her.  But spending a few hundred here and a few hundred there to build one is of no more consequence to her than her spending money on shoes, handbags and other stuff is to me.  If it makes her happy, then fine...and vice versa.

I just figured that I would wait until I have one running to show them to her.  But the other reason is that Kelli does have asthma and also the workroom is directly beneath our master bedroom.  So I try to avoid making tons of noise while she is home so that she can sleep (for instance, she was in Bali for 18 days and has spent the last 4 or 5 days trying to get back on east coast time).  And also I don't like to use chemicals, paints, or sprays while she is home because they do have an effect on her asthma. 

Anyway, she'll soon get to find out that I have a couple of new toys...one of which will get sold very soon after it is running to pay for the upgraded toys on the one we plan to keep.

Anyway, end of thread jack and back to Don's incredible build here.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 01:36:29 AM by Restoration Fan »
Ron

Stella - Logan's Senior Project    78 750K http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141761.0

Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafes    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147787.0.html

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #189 on: September 06, 2015, 04:44:46 AM »
Sorry for the sidetracked discussion,  guess I should have remained silent.  Relationships with a motorcycle are far simpler and easier to diagnose and troubleshoot. They follow laws of physics.

What kind of porting work are you having done on the head?
Are you staying stock on the valve sizes?
Big Jay just posted about APE making stainless steel valves for the 750 now. They're available and ready to ship.
They have stock, 1mm+ and 1.5mm+ sizes available.
Wonder who will be the first to take advantage of them?
Possibly a billet head owner?
One of Mike's masterpieces?
David
David- back in the desert SW!

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #190 on: September 06, 2015, 06:32:04 AM »
Fellas,

I am going to leave the dynamics of your marital communications and relations to you and yours.

As for the 650 engine, David:
Porting will be milder - between a Stage 1 and 2
Unfortunately, there are NO aftermarket oversized valves available for the 650 valvetrain that I (or Dynoman (Buzz), Mike or others I've asked) are aware of.  If you know of something, Please share!!
The APE valves are for the 750 application only.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #191 on: September 06, 2015, 06:35:03 AM »
Is there a HP advantage to using stainless steel valves or something?
Ron

Stella - Logan's Senior Project    78 750K http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141761.0

Logan's Reward - CB500 and CB550 Cafes    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147787.0.html

Offline grcamna2

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #192 on: September 06, 2015, 09:07:45 AM »
Is there a HP advantage to using stainless steel valves or something?

I'm guessing SS valves are more durable.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #193 on: September 06, 2015, 02:01:00 PM »

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1171/

 did a little web surfing and found that the exhaust valves are subject to very high temps and corrosion and a stainless or titanium valve works better in high heat conditions.

This site had a good explanation of valve material and uses and was posted on the corvette forums.


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1171/valve_selection_hot_valve_materials_for_hot_engines.aspx

Stainless steel valves VS. OEM Sodium filled two pieces valves
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  #21 

forg0tmypen , 09-10-2011 10:01 PM

Ok: pros and cons of titanium?

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jimman , 09-10-2011 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forg0tmypen

Ok: pros and cons of titanium?

Maybe this will help you:

Are stock valve materials good enough, or do you need to upgrade to valves that are made of a more durable alloy? If so, what kind of alloy? These are questions every engine builder must answer when selecting valves for performance engine applications.

To the naked eye, most valves look pretty much the same. Unless you're Superman and have spectral x-ray vision, one alloy looks pretty much the same as another - with the exception of coated titanium valves or steelvalves that have a black nitride coating. But even with these valves, the visual difference is the coating material not the alloy.

To understand valve alloys, you need to know something about basic metallurgy. There are essentially two basic types of steel used to make valves. One is "martensitic" steel and the other is "austenitic" steel. The difference is in the microstructure of the steel and how the various ingredients in the alloy interact when the molten steel is cast and cooled. This affects not only the hardness and strength of the steel, but also its corrosion resistance and magnetic properties. As a rule, martensitic steels are magnetic while austenitic steels are non-magnetic.

In martensitic steel, the steel is "quenched" (cooled) very quickly from a molten state to freeze the grain structure in a particular configuration. Under a microscope, the grain structure has a needle-like (acicular) appearance. This makes the steel very hard but also brittle. Reheating and cooling the steel (a process called "tempering") allows some of the martensite crystals to rearrange themselves into other grain structures which are not as hard or brittle. By carefully controlling the heat treatment and quenching process, the hardness and tensile strength of the steel can be fine tuned to achieve the desired properties.

Steel alloys with a martensitic grain structure typically have a high hardness at room temperature (35 to 55 Rockwell C) after tempering, which improves strength and wear resistance. These characteristics make this type of steel a good choice for applications such as engine valves.

But as the temperature goes up, martensitic steel loses hardness and strength. Above 1000° F or so, low carbon alloy martensitic steel loses too much hardness and strength to hold up very well. For this reason, low carbon alloy martensitic steel is only used for intake valves, not exhaust valves. Intake valves are cooled by the incoming air/fuel mixture and typically run around 800° to 1000° F, while exhaust valves are constantly blasted by hot exhaust gases and usually operate at 1200 to 1450° F or higher.

To increase high temperature strength and corrosion resistance, various elements may be added to the steel. On some passenger car and light truck engines, the original equipmentintake valves are 1541 carbon steel with manganese added to improve corrosion resistance. For higher heat applications, a 8440 alloy may be used that contains chromium to add high temperature strength. For many late model engines (and performance engines), the intake valves are made of an alloy called "Silchrome 1" (Sil 1) that contains 8.5 percent chromium.

Exhaust valves may be made from a martensitic steel with chrome and silicon alloys, or a two-piece valve with a stainless steel head and martensitic steel stem. On applications that have higher heat requirements, a stainless martensitic alloy may be used. Stainless steel alloys, as a rule, contain 10 percent or more chromium.

The most popular materials for exhaust valves, however, are austenitic stainless steel alloys such as 21-2N and 21-4N. Austenite forms when steel is heated above a certain temperature which varies depending on the alloy. For many steels, the austenitizing temperature ranges from 1600° to 1675° F, which is about the temperature where hot steel goes from red to nearly white). The carbon in the steel essentially dissolves and coexists with the iron in a special state where the crystals have a face-centered cubic structure. By adding other trace metals to the alloy such as nitrogen, nickel and manganese, the austenite can be maintained as the metal cools to create a steel that has high strength properties at elevated temperatures. Nitrogen also combines with carbon to form "carbonitrides" that add strength and hardness. Chromium is added to increase corrosion resistance. The end product is an alloy that may not be as hard at room temperature as a martensitic steel, but is much stronger at the high temperatures at which exhaust valves commonly operate.

Though austenitic stainless steel can handle high temperatures very well, the steel is softer than martensitic steel at lower temperatures and cannot be hardened by heat treating. To improve wear, a hardened wafer tip may be welded to the tip of the valve stem. Or, on some applications an austenitic stainless valve head may be welded to a martensitic stem to create a two-piece valve that has a long wearing stem and heat resistant head. The only disadvantage with a two-piece valve is that it doesn't cool as well as a one-piece valve. The junction where the two different steels are welded together forms a barrier that slows heat transfer up the stem.

21-2N alloy has been around since the 1950s and is an austenitic stainless steel with 21 percent chromium and 2 percent nickel. It holds up well in stock exhaust valve applications and costs less than 21-4N because it contains less nickel. 21-4N is also an austenitic stainless steel with the same chromium content but contains almost twice as much nickel (3.75 percent), making it a more expensive alloy. 21-4N is usually considered to be the premium material for performance exhaust valves. 21-4N steel also meets the "EV8" Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) specification for exhaust valves.

SAE classifies valve alloys with a code system: "NV" is the prefix code for a low-alloy intake valve, "HNV" is a high alloy intake valve material, "EV" is an austenitic exhaust valve alloy, and "HEV" is a high-strength exhaust valve alloy.

Unfortunately, you can't always tell what kind of alloy a valve is made from because different valve suppliers use different alloys as well as their their own proprietary names for their valve materials. Thus one manufacturer may call their intake valve material a "422 stainless alloy" while another refers to it as an "NK-842 stainless intake material." Without a thorough metallurgical analysis, you can't really compare one manufacturer's valve material to another's. But do you really need such a comparison? As long as the alloy does what it is supposed to do, it doesn't matter what they call it.

The bottom line here is that intake valves and exhaust valves both require different types of alloys. The same alloy can be used for both intake and exhaust valves (say 21-2N or 21-4N, for example), but the best results are usually obtained when different alloys are selected for the intake and exhaust valves. Why? Because an exhaust alloy that has good high temperature strength and corrosion resistance really isn't needed on the intake side, and it may not have the hardness and wear resistance of an intake alloy at lower temperatures. Even so, some companies sell the same alloy for both intake and exhaust valves while others offer different alloys for intake and exhaust valves.

Intake valves run cooler and are washed with fuel vapors which tend to rinse away lubrication on the valve stem. So for intake valves, wear resistance may be more important than high temperature strength or corrosion resistance if the engine will be involved in any kind of endurance racing. Exhaust valves, on the other hand, run much hotter than intake valves and must withstand the corrosive effects of hot exhaust gases and the weakening effects of high temperatures. Consequently, a premium valve material is an absolute must on the exhaust side - especially in turbocharged and supercharged engines and those that inject nitrous oxide to boost power.

As combustion temperatures go up, valve alloys that work fine in a stock engine may not have the strength, wear or corrosion resistance to hold up in a performance application. If you want the valves to last, especially in a highly modified racing engine, upgrading to better valve alloys will be a must.

The best advice is to follow the valve alloy recommendations of your valve supplier, and to rely on their expertise when it comes to picking the best valve material for a performance application. If a stock valve alloy is holding up well enough in a performance application, there's no need to upgrade. But if an engine is experiencing valve burning or premature valve failure, then an upgrade to a better material may be needed to solve the problem.

Performance Valve Alloys
Materials that may be used for performance valve applications include carbon steel alloys, stainless steels, high-strength nickel-chromium-iron alloys and titanium. The alloys that are most commonly used for performance engines include various high chromium stainless alloys for intake valves, and 21-4N (EV8) for exhaust valves.

Inconel® refers to a family of trademarked high-strength austenitic nickel-chromium-iron alloys (a "superalloy" material) that is sometimes used for exhaust valves because of its superior high temperature strength. Inconel is a nickel base alloy that is sometimes thought of as a super-stainless steel, with 15 to 16 percent chromium and 2.4 to 3.0 percent titanium. Inconel 751 is classified as an HEV3 alloy by SAE. This alloy has been used for the exhaust valves in some late model GM medium duty truck engines (to prevent premature valve erosion), but is not commonly used in performance exhaust valves. For most performance applications, the exhaust valve material of choice is 21-4N - or titanium.

Titanium is often viewed as the ultimate valve alloy material because of its lightness. Titanium is about 40 percent lighter than steel, making it a good alternative for high revving engines. Lighter valves also allow more radical cam profiles that open and close the valves more quickly for better off the line performance and low end torque. The durability of titanium is similar to that of stainless steel. But from a cost standpoint, titanium is way beyond any steel alloy. A single titanium valve may cost $70 to $90 or more. Spending $1,200 or more for a set of valves may be peanuts to a professional racer with deep pockets, but for the average guy that's a lot of money. Yet titanium valves are being used in many street performance engines as well as everything else. Titanium valves are even being used in some production motorcycle engines these days.

One supplier of titanium valves said they use the same alloy for both intake and exhaust valves: a 6242 alloy that contains 6 percent aluminum, 2 percent moly, 4 percent zirconium and 2 percent tin. But a different heat treatments are used for the intake valves and exhaust valves. The heat treatment is very important because it determines the ultimate strength and hardness of the metal.

Titanium valves are often coated with moly or another friction-reducing surface treatment to reduce the risk of stem galling. Coated valves are recommended for street performance applications, but may not be necessary in drag racing or circle track applications where engines are torn down and inspected frequently.

Titanium valves will work with stock valve guides and seats, but for the best results they should be used with copper beryllium seats (to improve heat transfer and cooling) and manganese or silicone bronze valve guides.

Performance Coatings
Valves often have stem and/or head coatings to enhance performance. Stock valves as well as performance valves usually have chrome-plated stems to protect the stem from galling when the engine is first started. Chrome-plating also helps reduce valve seal wear on engines that use positive valve seals.

The thickness of the chrome plating can vary from a thin flash of .0002? to .0007? up to a hard plating of as much as .001?. It's interesting to note that chrome plating actually produces a rougher, not smoother, surface. But microscopic cracks in the surface of the chrome retain oil and improve lubrication to reduce wear.

Many Japanese OEMs use a black nitride coating on the valves instead of chrome plating. The nitride coating, which is applied in a salt bath treatment, protects the stems against scuffing and wear. Nitriding creates a thinner but harder surface layer that also does an excellent job of reducing wear.

Some performance valves may also have the stems treated with a special dry film lubricant to reduce friction and wear. With titanium valves, a dry film lubricant coating can also reduce the effects of valve erosion caused by the hot exhaust gases as they exit the combustion chamber. Dry film lubricants on the stem and inside of the valve head can also reduce the build up of carbon deposits that can create turbulence in the incoming air/fuel mixture and exiting exhaust gases.

As for the valve face, various coatings may be used to increase heat and wear resistance in valves made of steel or Inconel. Stellite is a hard facing material that's often required for heavy-duty diesel and gasoline exhaust valve applications, and may be used in some Top Fuel applications. Stellite is a cobalt base material with a high chromium content. It is applied to the valve face to protect against oxidation and corrosion. It may also be used on the stem tip for added wear resistance.

Ceramic thermal barrier coatings may also be applied to the combustion side of the valve head to reflect heat back into the combustion chamber. The theory here is that a heat reflective coating helps the valves run cooler. This helps the exhaust valves run cooler and last longer, and reduces heat transfer from the intake valves to the incoming air/fuel mixture for a denser, more powerful mixture. Heat reflected back into the combustion chamber also improves burning efficiency and power.

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 Reply

  #23 

Michael_D , 09-10-2011 10:48 PM

Metallurgy...I didn't have to try hard to forget those classes... Still gives me a headache. Great read though jimman!

Del West has a more "mundane" article for the average guy that's a pretty good read for basicvalve train info.

http://www.delwestengineering.com/Do...TS_Catalog.pdf

Personally, when I send my heads out, I'm going with Ti exhaust. What's another $800 or so when considering the PITA it's going to be to have the car down for weeks, garage cluttered, oil and antifreeze all over the place, and the overall expense and my time to do work. And oh yeah, re-tuning the damn thing. Still can't talk myself into going with a Jesel or T/D rail system "while I'm at it", but I'm gettting close.

 Reply

  #24 

Mopar Jimmy , 09-10-2011 11:39 PM

Jimman,

That was one heck of a thesis on this issue! 

 Reply

  #25 

hapnermw , 09-11-2011 12:55 AM

A few sodium exhaust valves have catastrophically failed. In these cases, the two piece valve was the weak link.

Many exhaust valve guides have been found to be worn to the point that they put extra stress on the valve head and stem.

There is a history of valve guide wear issues associated with sodium valves so there is some basis to the speculation that they are one factor in the LS7 valve guide wear issue.

The LS7 was designed with lightweight valves, beehive springs and titanium pushrods to lighten the valve train to support a 7100 redline. In addition, the rockers are an efficient, lightweight design. Problems have surfaced with the loss of rocker bearings; valve guide wear and failure of the sodium valves. The extent of these is not clear. There may be additional valve train geometry issues. Those having LS7 head work done typically attempt to eliminate these potential issues.

I chose to install CHE bushed rockers several years ago and, with recent head work, CHE valve guides and Manley Severe Duty SS exhaust valves with stiffer dual springs to handle their 30 gm extra weight. I added Morel High RPM lifters and, due to .020 milling, shorter Manley Competition pushrods. The result is a heavier valve train but one I expect to be more durable for street/HPDE use.

Does it make sense to add weight to the valve train for these reasons? The racing engine builders I spoke with thought it did. On the other hand, this is just informed opinion that might prove wrong in time.

I faced a similar decision between retaining the stock sintered titanium rods and replacing them with Callies Compstar H rods. At 600+ HP and street/HPDE duty cycle the choice was easy, replace the stock rods with a marginally heavier but more durable rod.

So, while there may be 'nothing wrong with the sodium valves' there is also likely 'nothing wrong with replacing them' either.

 Reply

  #26 

glass slipper , 09-11-2011 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hapnermw

The LS7 was designed with lightweight valves, beehive springs and titanium pushrods to lighten the valve train to support a 7100 redline.

I faced a similar decision between retaining the stock sintered titanium rods and replacing them with Callies Compstar H rods.

The stock pushrods are not titanium and the connecting rods are forged powdered metal. Forging is done at a significantly lower temperature and higher pressure than sintering resulting in a fully dense rod with appropriate mechanical properties.

 Reply

  #27 

forg0tmypen , 09-11-2011 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mopar Jimmy

Jimman,

That was one heck of a thesis on this issue! 

Jimman didn't write all that  He got it from here...

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...t_engines.aspx

I should add, I had to read that 3 times before it started to make sense to my little (non-engineering) brain lol

 Reply

  #28 

forg0tmypen , 09-11-2011 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael_D

Metallurgy...I didn't have to try hard to forget those classes... Still gives me a headache. Great read though jimman!

Del West has a more "mundane" article for the average guy that's a pretty good read for basic valve train info.

http://www.delwestengineering.com/Do...TS_Catalog.pdf
Snip>>>


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« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 02:27:43 PM by RAF122S »
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Bootsey

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #194 on: September 06, 2015, 04:09:51 PM »
For a minute there I thought SoyBoy had struck again..

Motor is looking a treat 750!

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #195 on: September 06, 2015, 04:13:44 PM »
For a minute there I thought SoyBoy had struck again..

Motor is looking a treat 750!

 ;D ;D

That was a big chunk of info to digest.  I'll have to go through it again. 

Thanks, Bootsey!
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #196 on: September 06, 2015, 10:00:21 PM »
Yeah it was a huge paste and I vut it down as when I selected the text originally I posted from my phone and it is limited in the browser emulation is lacking in capabilities.  Hopped on my Mom's tablet and cut out about the same length of replies, some would be informative if you want to know more and can wrap your head around it.

I believe the exhaust valves are sodium filled on some of the CB  bikes.
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Offline riverfever

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #197 on: September 07, 2015, 08:10:44 PM »
For a minute there I thought SoyBoy had struck again..

Motor is looking a treat 750!

That's exactly what I thought.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #198 on: September 07, 2015, 08:29:33 PM »
For a minute there I thought SoyBoy had struck again..

Motor is looking a treat 750!

That's exactly what I thought.

The thought of SSB did cross my mind, but this actually has a purpose.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline riverfever

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Re: The Hot Mess - 1975 CB550F1 Frame/1981 CB650 Engine
« Reply #199 on: September 07, 2015, 08:33:11 PM »
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. Soy Boy. Wait......what's the extra S? Sh!tty Soy Boy? Sasqatch SB? Serendipitous SB?
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols