Author Topic: Oil tank relocation into swing arm (Read 6860 times)

Cpcracing · « **on:** September 10, 2015, 08:20:18 pm »

I am building a high performance street tracker. Mike Rieck , Cycle X, APE and other quality people and parts providers have been assisting me. I have succefully grafted onto my 750K5 a 2012 CBR 600RR rear swing arm and front end. The rear aluminum swing arm has a large cavity between the tire and mono shock. I would like to relocate the oil tank into this cavity but my concern or question is this; does the oil tank need to gravity feed the oil pump to lubricate properly? I don't want to kill my high dollar motor. If anyone has experienced success or failure in doing anything similar then I would love to have your opinion or suggestions.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #1 on:** September 11, 2015, 02:34:54 am »

To be honest, I wouldn't put it in the swingarm on a high dollar engine build, I don't like the idea of taking any risk what so ever in an expensive build, How about one of these tanks Scroll down just over half way down the page, its a rear inner guard with inbuilt tank, perfect for your application...

http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/hondaz/CB750SOHC1969-77.htm

turboguzzi · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2015, 03:00:59 am »

buells have to this day oil tanks integrated into the S'arm, so it's been done before, you might want to study how these are setup.

could be interesting to see a photo of that area in your bike.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2015, 03:12:46 am »

Quote from: turboguzzi on September 11, 2015, 03:00:59 am

buells have to this day oil tanks integrated into the S'arm, so it's been done before, you might want to study how these are setup.

could be interesting to see a photo of that area in your bike.

I've seen it done on a CB750 on this forum, I still wouldn't do it on a big dollar HYPO sohc engine though, In saying that, I wouldn't put a monoshock like that on a 750 either, it will extend the rear 4 to 6 inches or more, screwing with the handling, you'd have to run less offset in the triple clamps up front to try and balance the handling a bit...

Cpcracing · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2015, 11:36:09 am »

Thank you Retro Rocket and Turboguzzi for responding. I looked at the Airtech but it gets in the way for the articulation of the swing arm and remote reservoir of the shock. But the question that I asked has not full been answered and that is: Does the stock oil pump need gravity to feed oil to it in order to pump oil or does it have enough suction to draw oil into the pump and distribute it throughout the engine?

gschuld · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2015, 01:37:24 pm »

I believe the answer you are looking for is yes, there is a gravity feed component to the oil tank oil feeding the engine. The oil is force fed into the oil tank, but gravity fed back to the engine. I have seen odd oil tank positions for cb750 motors. I have seen a peanut tank mounted low in front of the motor on a custom chassis drag bike to get the weight down low and forward. This only works in a dedicated drag bike as oil is shoved back as power is applied. Upon hard braking, oil starvation could easily occur. Certainly not good for a road racer.

I have seen oil tanks mounted under the hump behind the seating position in a fiberglass or aluminum cafe/race seat. This generally works but puts oil weight higher in the chassis and could ...perhaps ...starve the engine during extreme acceleration.

I have seen vertical oil tanks made to fit between the frame rails just behind the carbs. Oil supply should be pretty good there.

I have even seen choppers running with larger oil pans and SKIPPED the oil tank all together. I would certainly not recommend that fir obvious reasons.

I have seen oil tanks mounted within the fuel tank area in various forms. Plenty of gravity feed but hot oil may heat up the fuel among other logistical issues.

Putting the oil tank in the swingarm would give very little gravity feed effect. Probably barely enough when stationary. But once you accelerate hard, fluids (OIL) will be pulled rearward, likely overcoming the minor downward slope from the swingarm to the sump fitting. I'd guess that you would have serious problems with oil not returning to the engine when you need it most. Engine bearings don't seem to have much of a sense of humor for such things.

I'm no expert on such topics, but that's my 2 cents.

George

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #6 on:** September 11, 2015, 02:35:14 pm »

The reason I wouldn't do it is because, The swingarm isn't suspended so all the road vibration is transmitted through the arm to the shocks, the frame doesn't get this movement because of the suspension, I could see this frothing the oil in the arm and helping break down the oil faster. Like i said, i wouldn't be doing this on a high dollar engine, I love the idea but I have one very expensive engine, every part of the engines systems will be as good as the parts used, no risks involved for me at all.....

Cpcracing · « **Reply #7 on:** September 11, 2015, 03:44:14 pm »

George and Retro Rocket,
Those are excellent comments. I do appreciate your input and opinions. I was also fishing to see if anyone's engine ever lived in those conditions as well as anyone who has 1st hand experienced a engine failure. Has anyone ever used the main top tube under the fuel tank into an oil reservoir like an old BSA? Does anyone have any other creative good ideas for an oil tank?

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #8 on:** September 11, 2015, 04:02:51 pm »

I think Egli used the top frame tube as an oil tank on their 750 Honda frames, Honda used the front frame rails on the CBX 750 for oil storage as well. There have been quite a few bikes that have used the frame as an oil storage part, to do it on a 750 you'd need a bigger top tube, I'll post a pic of an Egli frame...

Have a look at this link, this is an Egli frame, not sure what bike this one is for but the 750 honda Egli and Vincent Egli had oil in frame set ups...

http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/egli/Egli-Rahmen-Schwinge-vern-1.htm

754 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 11, 2015, 04:06:11 pm »

Relocate the coils, I have mounted them under the carbs.
Then build an oiltank in the triangle under the tank, notch the front of tank for the oil filler and dipstick.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #10 on:** September 11, 2015, 04:10:08 pm »

Quote from: 754 on September 11, 2015, 04:06:11 pm

Relocate the coils, I have mounted them under the carbs.
Then build an oiltank in the triangle under the tank, notch the front of tank for the oil filler and dipstick.

I agree, I've always wanted to see someone triangulate that section of the frame and use it as a tank, wouldn't be too hard either...

HondaMan · « **Reply #11 on:** September 11, 2015, 04:31:25 pm »

A couple other random thoughts:

-Install a 750A oil pan-like setup, cooled by the finned pan? The 750A manages 50k miles between rebuilds, without the tank. Drag racers like this, as do chopper riders. On turbo 750A bikes, I have seen deeply extended pans (about 1" more than OEM, with an adapter) since the exhaust pipes don't have to pass below the engine. On a custom "750 Scrambler" I saw in the 1970s, someone also adapted 2 Kawi 900 exhaust mufflers (one each side) into 2 beautifully siamese-d pipes each side, long and graceful, so as to install a deep oil pan back when a special adapter kit for choppers was made to "wet sump" the 750. It held over 4 quarts of oil, and the builder installed a windage pan under the crank to keep the splatter from robbing power: what a screamer that bike was! It popped wheelies like a CL450, easily.

-The constant motion of the hoses is going to be a wear issue, and will likely break the castings that feed the hoses to the engine (they are not terribly strong).

-The hydrostatic head pressure that feeds the [stock] oil pump is vital to getting oil flowing, especially when cold. It would be nonexistent if the swingarm held this oil. Once the pump sucks air, it takes a LONG time for the bubble to get pumped out, as those who dried out a pump and then tried to pump up the engine have discovered sometimes!

Cpcracing · « **Reply #12 on:** September 11, 2015, 08:33:29 pm »

Retro rocket,754 & Hondaman, I like all of your ideas. So Hondaman do you have instructions and parts to do your suggested idea? Are there any downside to making a "wet sump" out of the 750? Also 754, do you have a photo of the coils mounted under the carb? Retro Rocket, what is the minimum size of an oil tank using your suggestion?

754 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 11, 2015, 08:46:11 pm »

I just made a bracket to hold the coils, may have been running Andrews coils, it was bolted to the engine case using two of the 6mm bolts on top case half. I then ran the plug wires thru the holes near the center of the cylinder.
I was thinking ban aluminum tank in the frame rails but it may not hold enough.. Mock something up out of cardboard, tape the edges together, then fill with sand to measure.
I would not let it hold less than four qts including filter change...about one is in the cases and filter.
So that is three in the tank.. More i think of it, the more it sounds like not enough room.. Plus you have to allow room for throttle cables..

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #14 on:** September 11, 2015, 10:59:38 pm »

I like Retro, Frank and Hondaman's ideas. That Airtech rig looks like a nice piece. The triangle oil backbone tank sounds like a great play on the Egli.

I have a variation on the Airtech idea: an aluminum fender/oil tank with a built in sight glass:

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #15 on:** September 12, 2015, 01:17:00 am »

Quote from: Cpcracing on September 11, 2015, 08:33:29 pm

Retro rocket,754 & Hondaman, I like all of your ideas. So Hondaman do you have instructions and parts to do your suggested idea? Are there any downside to making a "wet sump" out of the 750? Also 754, do you have a photo of the coils mounted under the carb? Retro Rocket, what is the minimum size of an oil tank using your suggestion?

Quote from: 754 on September 11, 2015, 08:46:11 pm

I just made a bracket to hold the coils, may have been running Andrews coils, it was bolted to the engine case using two of the 6mm bolts on top case half. I then ran the plug wires thru the holes near the center of the cylinder.
I was thinking ban aluminum tank in the frame rails but it may not hold enough.. Mock something up out of cardboard, tape the edges together, then fill with sand to measure.
I would not let it hold less than four qts including filter change...about one is in the cases and filter.
So that is three in the tank.. More i think of it, the more it sounds like not enough room.. Plus you have to allow room for throttle cables..

Frank covers most things here, I would work out the volume or area of the stock tank then do a mock up like Frank {754} suggests, I would also try and stick with the volume of the stock oil tank. This is what I was thinking about, remove the side rails and triangulate the top rail...

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.grandnationalreplica.com/mod/cms/images/GetAttachment5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://ausbuells.informe.com/forum/xb-tuber-chat-f3/flat-track-frame-for-buell-engine-t4057.html&h=386&w=566&tbnid=XzSMinOjfkXfWM:&docid=dDHoJrK0CsclZM&ei=x97zVdLaEejBmAWiyIWIBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CE8QMygsMCxqFQoTCJLa0dCG8ccCFeggpgodImQBQQ

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://fullcirclevtwin.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/DSC_0536.jpg&imgrefurl=http://fullcirclevtwin.com/blog/?cat%3D4&h=1312&w=2000&tbnid=pKNnG-7k3F7wAM:&docid=lD7AQNU2kHAQOM&ei=x97zVdLaEejBmAWiyIWIBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CEMQMyggMCBqFQoTCJLa0dCG8ccCFeggpgodImQBQQ

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/20164/10638.jpg&imgrefurl=http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/20164/13373.html?1012936266&h=384&w=512&tbnid=HVlaMfdB_-pOwM:&docid=giOilGh8qY3gRM&ei=x97zVdLaEejBmAWiyIWIBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CEoQMygnMCdqFQoTCJLa0dCG8ccCFeggpgodImQBQQ

Cpcracing · « **Reply #16 on:** September 12, 2015, 08:00:42 am »

Cafe Racer, I like your idea too. Putting a sight glass in it to check oil is a great idea as well.

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #17 on:** September 12, 2015, 10:05:16 am »

Quote from: Cpcracing on September 12, 2015, 08:00:42 am

Cafe Racer, I like your idea too. Putting a sight glass in it to check oil is a great idea as well.

The sight glass was put in after the initial fabrication. Since the location of the tank does not lend itself to filling without taking off the seat, I wanted an EASY way to confirm oil level versus a dipstick. Ian agreed and installed a sight glass.

Cpcracing · « **Reply #18 on:** September 12, 2015, 10:57:50 am »

Retro Rocket,
Thanks for the links. I looked at them. It is making some of my creative juices flow and inspiring some new ideas. If you have any other ideas shoot them my way.

Cpcracing · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2015, 12:03:37 pm »

For those of you following this thread, this is my 750K5 with a 2012 CBR600RR front end and rear end grafted on. I am looking for inspiration for a custom oil tank location. Please post your thought and Ideas.

Old Scrambler · « **Reply #20 on:** September 12, 2015, 12:39:10 pm »

I modified a late-model tank by moving the filler under the seat............its in my build story.........Classic Bonneville Racer. If I had to do it again, I would move it another inch to the inboard. My leg gets quite warm after a few minutes on the bike. No oil cooler because I don't plan to run longer than a few minutes.

Are you planning on an oil cooler?

Maybe a fairing?

With a large cooler and good air-circulation, the tank need not be so large. What is the purpose of the build? Street-light drags..........drag-race track..........fun in the twisties............

The extended wheelbase and steep steering will probably limit its best performance to TT...........Tavern to Tavern

Cpcracing · « **Reply #21 on:** September 12, 2015, 01:15:57 pm »

Old Scrambler,
Yes I do plan on putting on an oil cooler from a 900 or 1000 off an older Honda. The purpose of the bike is just a high performance street bike. The engine is a Big Bore 915 cycle X. APE lighted crank, under cut gears, Carrillo Rods, Mikuni RS 34's, Megacycle 125-70 cam, oversized valves with a Mike Rieck valve job and exhaust is a Stainless Steel Carpy's Yorshimira clone. It will mostly be used to and from work to home but on occasion I will bring it up to canyons for an afternoon ride as I live in the Rocky Mountains in Utah. The steering angle is the same as a stock K5 but with the cbr600rr swing arm my wheelbase grew to 59 1/2 inches. I am sure it will slow down by cornering but my straight-line and high speed straight-a-ways should be enhanced.
Dale

Old Scrambler · « **Reply #22 on:** September 13, 2015, 03:52:11 pm »

Nice build............getting popular these days............

Lostboy Steve · « **Reply #23 on:** September 14, 2015, 10:15:55 am »

I think running a Buell (oiltank) Swingarm and Front End with the Buell Wheels and ZTL would be cool. True Showa Forks on those as well.

Cpcracing · « **Reply #24 on:** September 14, 2015, 08:20:02 pm »

Hondaman suggested that a dry sump be modified to a wet sump by using a CB 750A oil pan and windage plate. Has anyone else out their tried it with success? Hondaman, do you have to manufacture your own windage plate?

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Author Topic: Oil tank relocation into swing arm (Read 6860 times)