Author Topic: pop quiz  (Read 2616 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hymodyne

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,302
pop quiz
« on: May 30, 2005, 07:36:20 PM »
ok,
so you've taken off the cb 500K1 carbs for a third time, this time finally removing all rubber and gaskets for soaking in preparation for the rebuild kit you've got coming this week, and you hope you've fixed the problem that brought them off for the third time anyway: the fact that no adjustment of the gas/air mixture screw, all the way in or out, made any difference to the richly running engine (choke open).

as you tear down the carbs for final cleaning, the needles, (#103) are found to be set one notch lower than the middle space, but the bike came with a stock air box. you're switching from 4-to-two, to four-into-one exaust, with a 15" KEAG slip on cannister. your carbs have 40mm pods with a flat  3mm foam element.

as you rebuild, should needle depth be set in the middle of the five spaces on the shank, inspite of the changes to breathing and backpressure via the exaust and breather changes?

what do you do?

hym
"All things are ready if our minds be so."

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: pop quiz
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2005, 07:38:27 PM »
You've done a fantastic job of describing why I hate carbs.  >:(
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline hymodyne

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,302
Re: pop quiz
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2005, 08:10:50 PM »
an update:

main needle size unknown. 272304 is the number around the upper shaft, 103 was stamped on the underside of the plungers (sorry). the needles are 66mm long.

hym
"All things are ready if our minds be so."

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: pop quiz
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2005, 10:11:05 PM »
How many times do you think the Honda engineers installed and removed the carbs on that engine before they found out what main jet size, needle taper profile and clip position, emulsion tube air bleed holes sizes, slow jet size, and idle air bleed screw setting, properly matched the induction and exhaust flow characteristics for the bike they offered to showroom floors?
I'd be willing to bet they had a dynomometer, intake and exhaust instrumentation for temperatures, and sensors for expelled O2 and hydrocarbons.   I'm guessing hundreds of times.

It might be possible to predict jetting changes (to some degree) if you had flow resistance chart profiles for the stock, as well as new, exhaust system and induction components.

If you don't have a dyno, or access to one, the only home brew method I know for carb tuning to non-stock factory components is by reading your plugs for combustion indicators and placing the bike under timed, acceleration loads.  A repetative process that lets you set Main jet size for WOT performance, slide needle taper profile and position for the multiple midrange throttle positions, and then idle jet and pilot screw air bleeds for idle mixture and throttle response balance for low speed pickup.

But, it seems most people don't want to hear this...

This probably sounds like I don't want to help you.  But, I really do.  I'm worried, though that your immediate expectations may be unrealistic.  Recommendations from people on this list are going to be based on the data you've presented.

Unfortunately, I don't think much data is going to useful until you've put the beast back together, gotten a little run time on it, and have read your plugs under load conditions.
Have you seen the spark plug pics at:
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html
?
How do yours compare and under what load/speed conditions?
Are you aware of the different metering devices in your carbs and how/when they operate?
Are you prepared to reinstall you carb bank as many times as necessary to dial in your carbs for the different throttle settings? With practice, you'll get pretty fast at it.  And, new coupling rubber will help...a lot.

As a first cut though, and since you know it was running rich before (I assume at cruise speeds) then dropping your needle one notch is probably a good first try for the new machine configuration.

Let us know how it goes!

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Glenn Stauffer

  • SOHC/4 #3 - Member since 1994
  • Administrator
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,295
    • The SOHC/4 Owners Group
Re: pop quiz
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 05:19:35 AM »
as you rebuild, should needle depth be set in the middle of the five spaces on the shank, inspite of the changes to breathing and backpressure via the exaust and breather changes?

Set everything up according to the book, then ride the bike and adjust as necessary.  Once you have those carbs back on the bike, you can change jets and change the needle position without having to remove the carbs.  My feeling is that you don't know the true impact of any of the exhaust/airbox changes on YOUR bike.  Do plug chop tests.

This is a procedure from http://www.jpcycles.com/Tech/Articles/jettingpipes.aspx

Here is a basic procedure to determine what jet to change. First, change the components such as pipes or air cleaner and get yourself 3 or 4 sets of new plugs, gapped and ready to install. We need to have access to the idle mixture screw, so we need to drill out the plug covering it. Once this is done, screw it in until it bottoms lightly, then back out 11/4 turns. Put a piece of masking tape around your throttle. Pick an easily seen reference point on your switch housing and mark on the tape where the zero (0) throttle position is. Open the throttle wide open, and mark on the tape the full throttle point. Half way between these marks mark again, and divide the 2-1/2's in 1/2 again. When you are though, you will have a mark at 0, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and Wide Open Throttle on the throttle sleeve.

Next, start the bike and warm it up so that it idles without the use of the enrichner. Once that's done, while wearing a set of mechanics gloves, remove the spark plugs and install a new set. Take the bike out and ride it for about 10 to 15 miles at 1/4 throttle if possible.

Things get a little complex now, so pay attention. We need to do what's called a "plug chop". This is where you pull the clutch, kill the ignition, and pull to the side of the road (carefully of course) WITHOUT ALLOWING THE BIKE TO IDLE. Still using your mechanic gloves, remove a plug and look at the color. If they are black and sooty, you are running rich on the pilot jet and need to reduce the amount of fuel by installing a smaller jet. If they are clean white, you are lean and need to give the engine more fuel by using a larger pilot or turn the mixture screw out a 1/4 turn. If they are brown no change is required. To aid in tuning, when you go in with the mixture screw, you get a leaner mixture. Out you richen the mixture. As a general rule of thumb the idle mixture should be 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 turns out when you have selected the right pilot jet. Repeat your test with fresh plugs for 1/2 throttle. Here in order to make a change, we can add fuel only with a stock needle by shimming with tiny washers under the needle. Every shim you add richens the midrange. The Dynojet tuner kits are equipped with a needle that has grooves in the end to adjust the position with a clip. Remember the higher on the needle the clip is the leaner the midrange becomes.

Install the appropriate jet you have decided upon (or make needle change), and a new set of plugs and redo the test. Repeat this until you have the correct light chocolate appearance.

The main jet is your cruising jet and needs to be tested above 3/4 throttle. It requires nice stretch of open road, or better yet a drag strip. Repeat the same type of test as before at 3/4 throttle and full throttle, doing your plug chop. Make changes accordingly. An additional test that is handy is to get up to, fourth gear at about 4000 RPM. Open the throttle all the way then immediately let off the throttle about 1/8. If the engine slows just a bit, the jet is close, if it seems to pick up speed or RPM; the main jet is too lean. If it hesitates or stumbles, the main is too rich. Change jets and test again.

After you have the jets close, I just ride about 50 to 75 miles observing the performance of the bike at different speeds. Poor acceleration, pinging, knocking, surging and popping or spitting through the carburetor suggests you're still lean. Black smoke, sooty exhaust, smell of unburned fuel and a rough idle suggest too rich. When I get back from the ride, I pull the plugs once more and see what I've got. If they are tan, light chocolate and the bike runs good, I'm done.


Online MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,561
  • Big ideas....
Re: pop quiz
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2005, 08:47:05 AM »
How many times do you think the Honda engineers installed and removed the carbs on that engine before they found out what main jet size, needle taper profile and clip position, emulsion tube air bleed holes sizes, slow jet size, and idle air bleed screw setting, properly matched the induction and exhaust flow characteristics for the bike they offered to showroom floors?
I'd be willing to bet they had a dynomometer, intake and exhaust instrumentation for temperatures, and sensors for expelled O2 and hydrocarbons.   I'm guessing hundreds of times.





  I say they probably got it right after only a few times. Keihin supplied the carbs and given specifications they designed the product. Between the databases and scores of engineers at Honda and Keihin I'm sure it was very close the first time. I could see them doing more testing that involved reliability. I'm sure they have/had many dynos available. ;)
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"