Author Topic: So what keeps killin my bike?  (Read 7073 times)

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Offline CBGBs

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So what keeps killin my bike?
« on: October 29, 2006, 06:33:54 PM »
Long story, short.

My twin blew a piston. Popped a hole right in the center of the right piston. I was ridding two-up on a 90 plus degree day on a long highway. This is tough for a 350 I know, but she should be good for it. I gradually lost power until I was giving it full throttle to maintain 50mph and then it stopped. Blown piston.

So I checked it out and decided to leave it to the pro's. Bored with .030 over slugs, ported intake and exhaust, slight mill of the head and back in the bike it goes. This time with upgraded carbs (cb500t), electronic ignition and fresh filters.

The bike did well until one day about fewer than 1000 miles later on a nice 80+ degree day when it happened again only it was more subtle. I lost the left piston this time.

What do you think happened?
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2006, 07:57:34 PM »
Stock airbox? Stock exhaust? Sounds like it was running a bit lean. That + ambient air temperature??
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 08:13:04 PM »
Yup...more likely than not runnin lean.
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Offline Green550F

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2006, 10:04:51 PM »
had a snowmobile ddi it to me. if you think it sucks, try walking home when it's 20 degrees out!

the sled had broken a ring, leaned out a cyl, melted a hole through the piston, fused the wrist pin to the piston too. actually had to cut the piston in half to replace it!
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Offline kghost

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2006, 10:15:46 PM »
I think it sounds like detonatation.

Maybe your working that poor 350 a little too much.  ;D
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2006, 10:28:57 PM »
A few years back,I walked 2 miles home in Wyoming.....winter,11pm.....when I got home it was straight up 0 degrees....can you say Frosty the F%$n Snowman?????
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 02:59:34 AM »
Stock airbox? Stock exhaust? Sounds like it was running a bit lean. That + ambient air temperature??
The first incident was with stock airbox, the second was with foam filters. Both incidents with stock exhaust.

I kept the carbs clean, adjusted the jetting, checked my diaphrams :P, and used filters on the fuel lines. Valves were adjusted. Why would it do this to me twice. :(
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 03:05:08 AM by CBGBs »
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Offline crazypj

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 08:01:42 AM »
It switched sides so it may well be that the ignition timing is out on the side that died?
It wont need to be far out if your putting motor under a reasonable amount of stress, particularly if carburation is either spot on or slighty lean.
Go up a size on main jet to be on safe side.
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Offline kghost

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 10:19:47 AM »
Knocking (also called pinking or pinging)—technically detonation—in internal combustion engines occurs when fuel/air mixture in the cylinder has been ignited by the spark plug and the smooth burning is interrupted by the unburned mixture in the combustion chamber exploding before the flame front can reach it. Combusting stops suddenly, because of the explosion, before the optimum moment of the four-stroke cycle. The resulting shockwave reverberates in the combustion chamber and pressures increase catastrophically, creating a characteristic metallic "pinging" sound.

The fuel/air mixture is normally ignited slightly before the point of maximum compression to allow a small time for the flame-front of the burning fuel to expand throughout the mixture so that maximum pressure occurs at the optimum point. The flame-front moves at roughly 33.5 m/second (110 feet/second) during normal combustion. It is only when the remaining unburned mixture is heated and pressurized by the advancing flame front for a certain length of time that the detonation occurs. It is caused by an instantaneous ignition of the remaining fuel/air mixture in the form of an explosion. The cylinder pressure rises dramatically beyond design limits. If allowed to persist detonation will damage or destroy engine parts.

Detonation can be prevented by:

The use of a fuel with higher octane rating
The addition of octane-increasing "lead," isooctane, or other fuel additives.
Increasing the amount of fuel injected/inducted (resulting in lower Air to Fuel Ratio)
Reduction of cylinder pressure by increasing the engine revolutions (lower gear), decreasing the manifold pressure (throttle opening) or reducing the load on the engine, or any combination.
Reduction of charge (in-cylinder) temperatures (such as through cooling, water injection or compression ratio reduction).
Retardation of spark plug ignition.
Improved combustion chamber design that concentrates mixture near the spark plug and generates high turbulence to promote fast even burning.
Use of a spark plug of colder heat range in cases where the spark plug insulator has become a source of pre-ignition leading to detonation

As you can see above......

The leading causes of detonation are : incorrect timing (too advanced), Lean mixture (carburation), Over loading, and incorrect Spark plug (too cold a heat range).

When detonation occurs temps and pressures in the cylinder rise dramatically. This causes hot spots to develope on the piston. The aluminum piston does not require much heating beyond its normal operating range before the metallurgy of the piston is affected.

When this happens the piston loses its "temper" and will melt. Aluminum pistons are manufactured from alloyed and heat treated materials and once you over heat them this is lost.

Riding two up at highway speed (60-70mph) up and down hills on a 350 sounds to me like a sure way to overwork the engine leading to detonation.
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2006, 03:08:33 AM »
Yes, my engine does ping. It always has and no matter what I have done to affect this it has always been present. I have tried higher octane, larger jets, larger carbs I have tried adjusting the timing to varying degrees. I use stock plugs. The engine was likely knocking both times it blew. The bike would often ping "off the line" when riding.
I am frustrated with this problem. :(
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2006, 07:06:59 PM »
If you don't find whats wrong and fix it soon....you're gonna be more than frustrated!!!! Can you say cooked aluminum?
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2006, 02:43:31 AM »
I've said "cooked aluminum " twice already. Twice in 6000 miles. :-[
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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2006, 08:48:59 AM »
Can you check it? Drive up a hill in a heavy gear (4th?)
If you hear your cilinder "ping tingeling ing ing ing..." turn your bike off.

You may have mutch work to do  :-\

nice post kghost!

Offline dusterdude

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 10:23:19 AM »
you might try 1 step colder plug too.
mark
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Offline kghost

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 01:15:21 PM »
you might try 1 step colder plug too.

Ummm....wouldn't recommend that as that can be one of the factors causing detonation.....
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 01:49:16 PM »
really?
mark
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 05:04:00 PM »
I hate to say it but maybe you need a bigger bike if you are going to run at high speeds for long strecthes . Engines that are running really hot will PING. . They are kinda around town bikes. I know it is a downer but maybe a 500 or 750 be better suited. 
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 08:58:31 PM »
you might try 1 step colder plug too.

Ummm....wouldn't recommend that as that can be one of the factors causing detonation.....

Who's a silly Timothy ;D ;D ;D ;D....you already did recommend it in your super detailed post ::) ::) ::)

Now say sorry to Dusty ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam.  ;)
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Offline kghost

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 09:04:17 PM »
you might try 1 step colder plug too.

Ummm....wouldn't recommend that as that can be one of the factors causing detonation.....

Who's a silly Timothy ;D ;D ;D ;D....you already did recommend it in your super detailed post ::) ::) ::)

Now say sorry to Dusty ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam.  ;)

 ;D yes ... I did....but I think he skipped that part....... ;D

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2006, 06:05:45 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2006, 06:46:06 PM »
Hey , hey!!!!! back on track! This is serious! My bike is in serious surgery right now and I'm not sure that I have a cure. I know the bike is small, but it is a champ when its runnin good and I love the bike.
My goal is to hit a ton on it. I really think I can. :o
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 07:05:49 PM »
Harder/colder plugs, not sure what caused it the first time but remember, youv'e had the head milled raising the compession.

Higher comprssion = heat, you need plugs that can withstand the heat.

Go up two sizes, if it makes it to hard to start, come down one.

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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2006, 05:03:25 AM »
My plan so far is to rebuild the petcock and make sure it is flowing well. I've also considered using a single spout aftermarket piece from sirius consolidated SCI just because I've noticed some random flow problems(?). I will make sure the carb boots are not overly tight on the head causing a leak when the engine is very hot.
Ill try colder plugs but I have little faith any of these will really solve it.  This will be a winter project. I've been too buisy lately to do anything but purchase a Mac 2 into 1 exhaust that should be here any day.

The bike actually pinged less after the head was milled and I was using the CB500T carbs. but instead of pinging at cruising speed, it would usually ping a little off the line.

This bike must hit 100mph. ;D
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phylo101

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2006, 07:12:26 PM »
the G's were known for "pinking"; that and the cam lubrication issue were two of their worse points. BUT they were also known for very imprecise timing and the alloy points plate warping, especially if they were overheating anyway! Very easy for the timing to go out. And as 90mph is right up at the very edge of the twin's performance envelope the pin was out of the grenade and it was smoking anyway......

Offline crazypj

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2006, 07:21:19 AM »
Hey , hey!!!!! back on track! This is serious! My bike is in serious surgery right now and I'm not sure that I have a cure. I know the bike is small, but it is a champ when its runnin good and I love the bike.
My goal is to hit a ton on it. I really think I can. :o

yes you can, but you'll have to be wrapped around the tank or find a long downhill (or both ;D)
They are also very susceptible to fuel level changes. (as little as 1 gallon used makes a difference at full throttle)
 When it drops they run lean so make sure you keep it topped right up or change to Mikuni carbs which don't seem to have the same problem as stock Kei-Hin
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2006, 08:35:24 AM »
call me stupid,but in the automotive world,if you run high compression or spend a lot of time at higher speeds,you need to run a colder plug.
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Offline HITMAN

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2006, 05:27:52 PM »
+1 on the colder plugs, in addition to higher compression and over-bore we had to increase the cooling system about a half over stock, but we also added headers to our cars. 

My guess would be with all these mods (bore, compression and larger carbs) the stock cans are a big contributor to higher engine temps.    In my experience with Resistor plugs up to NR plugs was the least and last effort to fine-tuning, not major problem solving.
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2006, 02:54:12 AM »
I'll try the colder plugs but the piston blew with the engine stock, and I'll consider mikuni's but the piston blew with cb500t carbs too. I've noticed that the racers are using the stock carbs so I figure that they should work for me. I still think it has to do with the fuel supply. Do you  think an aftermarket petcock may help?

I'm almost ready to put the bike back together.

In the original ad for the 350, Honda claimed it would hit 100.
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Offline Jay B

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2006, 05:14:43 AM »
How do the combustion chambers look when you tear it down? Carbon deposits can cause hot spots that will pre-ignite the mixture and raise all sorts of hell with things.
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2006, 06:35:12 PM »
I don't recall that they were in bad shape but they likely had some carbon, but not a flakey buildup. I would hate to tear it back down just to check, but that is good thinking.hmmm
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jsaab2748

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2006, 09:05:31 PM »
Does the mechanical spark advance work like it should? Did a previous owner ever tamper with it, i.e. stretch the springs,or modify it to advance farthur than it's standard limits? Is it rusted/frozen in a full advance position? ........a few stabs in the dark ;D

Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2006, 07:13:17 PM »
Both times the piston blew it was with points and the advance was working properly and was unaltered. The bike is in good shape and the bike had been running fairly well.
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Offline CBGBs

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2006, 04:16:36 AM »
I mean running "fairly" well. I'm pretty sure this is a lean problem.
There had been times when the bike was completely stock that I would be cruising along a rural road at like 65 with just a big smile on my face and I would be thinking about how I loved my little honda and then I would start hearing that ping grow louder and I would start loosing speed and I would flog the bike to maintain 35.
I believe I was on one cyclinder and just abusing the crap out of the pistons.
This happened a few time, usually on hot days. Sometimes when I would come to a stop after a stretch the bike would not stay running.
I believe there was no fuel in the bowl. :-\ :'(
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jsaab2748

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2006, 06:18:10 PM »
I'd agree that you have a lean condition. Another wild guess might be that the gas cap isn't venting, and not allowing atmospheric pressure to enter the tank as the fuel level drops. Pretty soon, fuel flow slows down, preventing proper fuel levels in the bowls. Another guess is that the balance tube that connects the two tank halves together is stopped up and not allowing fuel levels in each half of the tank to equalize. This condition can cause problems when the tank is only approx. half full if memory serves me....These are only guesses and if these are indeed problems, I'd think they'd cause less drastic effects on the engine than what you are actually experiencing. You could check 'em tho. If the problem was present with BOTH a stock AND modified engine, I'd think the problem lies in an area that was never changed, and both engine configurations had in common, such as the ones mentioned. Were the plugs of the correct heat range? any vacuum leaks?
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: So what keeps killin my bike?
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2006, 07:06:55 PM »
If you want to continue using your little 350 as a highway ride, you may want to consider upgrading certain components to help the engine resist detonation.

Everything that kghost said is true, no matter the engine you're working on. One thing that is especially important is getting the air/fuel mixture that is in the chamber as homogeneous as possible. There are a few "tricks" that have been developed since these engines were made, many of which aren't very well known.

Two things I recommend: MetricMechanic's Surface Turbulence valves and Mike Holler's PowreLynz.

Surface Turbulence Valves:


http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdfs/M3_Engine.pdf

Before you say something like "That may work with car engines but it won't work with our old motorcycle engines," do a little research. I know that this particular picture is of a completely different combustion chamber (utilizes squish/quench and Singh Grooves) but the effect is the same regardless of the chamber shape. The ST Valves help mix the air/fuel before it gets into the chamber.

The back side of the valves look the same. They will increase low-lift flow by about 10% and full lift flow by about 4%. They also aid in vaporising and mixing the fuel into the air charge.

PowreLynz:


http://powrehaus.com/2006/10/30/powre-lynz/
Quote
In fluidynamics, as an aerosol travels through a conduit, the gasseous elements will hug the center while the liquid elements will drop to the boundary layer.  Restated, as an air fuel charge travels through the cylinder head, the air and vaporized gasoline will hug the center of the port while the liquids will collect and puddle against the port walls.

By adding “screw threads” to the intake port walls, we are able to better vaporize the fuel through a couple of means:

- Increase boundary layer turbulence to excite the liquids and discourage puddling and condensing.

- Increase the surface area of the hot port wall allowing increased exposure to the liquid fuel.

- Create a “wick effect” where the screw threads will temporarily hold the liquid fuel and allow it to vaporize off into the higher velocity air stream.

- As a large fuel droplet bounces off the serraded walls, it will break into a dozen smaller, more readily vaporizable droplets.

- Promotes laminar flow outwardly, increasing the surface area of the fuel allowing it to vaporize more readily.

Realize that these mods won't cover up the problem you're having with your carbs. They're not meant as "band aids" to cover up more serious fuel problems. That being said, they greatly reduce detonation in an "overworked" engine such as yours.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 07:13:58 PM by Pinhead »
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