Topic: Tapered Steering Bearings Thread

[ofreen]

I was trying not to overflow the forum with new topics for things that have already been covered.

You didn't do anything wrong.  This is a long running thread.

[crazypj]

Personally I think it's better to keep a thread going, all the information and questions stay in one place.
It can be an ordeal to wade through everything, but, it's generally easier than opening a ton of posts that have no relevance after the title (or have the exact same question with only slightly different wording)

[Hush]

Yo Clinto, not sure how you managed to beat up the bottom part of your steering head as a long drift from the top should have easily knocked it out.
A bit of a clean up and you won't have any problems, just if you need to push the new bearings in with something, use the old bearing race as it should be the same size.

[CR125Honda]

Read through this thread before buying my "All Balls" kit.
Many replies, a lot of good advice but not a lot of consistency on the order of installing the bearings, seals, & washers.
Studied, measured, etc., and used the method I thought would work the best on my 1974 CB750.
In other words - "I did it ...   my  .. way", sorry Frank..

First removed the tree.
Tapped the old races out with a brass punch.
Ground the bottom race with a grinding wheel on the dremel and tapped it off with a brass punch.



Put the seal supplied in the kit on the lower bearing and tapped it in place with the aid of a PVC tube.



Instead of putting the larger diameter washer / spacer supplied in the kit below the bearing, I put it on top of the lower race.
The OD of that washer is slightly smaller than the ID inside the neck. I made sure it was centered as I seated the lower race.
 


The bearing & seal fit nicely in the neck.



The fork stops mesh in the same place they use to.



Now for the top bearing...

I installed the frozen race on top. No washers / spacers, or seal.



The kit says to mill the ridge inside the fork nut "X" amount..  I decided differently.

I took the dremel again and carefully ground each place on the ridge where it held the cup to the nut. Then removed the cup and ground the ridge completely flat. I wanted the top bearing to sit flush to the surfaced on the nut. The inner diameter of the cup is slightly larger than the area on the bearing it sits over. I verified this by assembling the tree back together and snugging the nut down. The cup would spin freely and had some vertical movement.



Then used a small amount of JB weld to attach the cup back to the nut.



Hand tight, the nut sits flush on top of the bearing..



I did all this to maintain the same distance between the upper and lower tree as it was originally and avoid using any spacers above or below the chrome headlight mounts.
It was a success!
I temporarily mounted the ears with the top tree secured and the fit was snug, just as it should be.
Will post more pics when I get the forks back on. 

Ken

[Roach Carver]

CR125, in the second pic, is that a hole in the stem right above your seated tapered bearing? or just black paint.

[Tews19]

I noticed that and it looks like you have cut into the stem all the way around it.. You do not want to compromise the structural integrity...

[CR125Honda]

CR125, in the second pic, is that a hole in the stem right above your seated tapered bearing? or just black paint.

I noticed that and it looks like you have cut into the stem all the way around it.. You do not want to compromise the structural integrity...

Thanks for the concern guys. Lookin out for our fellow bikers is a good thing.
Low post count but not a Noob.

Speck of black paint and optical illusion.

The steering stem tapers out slightly then is wider for the the bottom 1 1/2" or so.
The shiny area above the bearing is normal.
The bearing to stem is an interference fit.
They machined the stem to a certain tolerance prior to welding it to the lower tree to accommodate this.
I'm guessing the small grooves in the stem are from the chuck on the lathe at the factory.
I'm the second owner and am pretty sure the tree's have never been apart on this bike before.

Ken

Zoom view of pic above


took another today

[andrewk]

Pictures often don't tell the whole story, but to me, it doesn't look like you've got enough grease packed in those.  Did you pack them properly?  Will make a difference later on...

[754]

Is that a small coral snake wrapped around the neck?  Poisonous ?

[CR125Honda]

Is that a small coral snake wrapped around the neck?  Poisonous ?

Yesss..  I'm up for a serious question..

Before drilling holes, cutting grooves and rubbing on grease like sun tan lotion.....

I noticed cracks running along the welds that attach the goose neck to the frame.
I ride the bike too much and didn't want to take it down for repair.
The coral snake was later substituted for a colored rubber band that keeps the front end on!
Been that way for years. Always wondered why the front end felt a bit mushy.

Ken

BTW - Hope the instructional I posted above helps the next guy when installing the All balls kit.

 

[Scott S]

 I'm building a CB550 from, literally, a pile of parts. I don't have the old bearing stack to measure to see which washer to use.
 Any hints as to how to precede?

[raymond10078]

A lot of threads on this topic - I think this is the most recently used - so I'll  put this here.

This is another option to grinding off the whole "lip".

I chose to buy a shim (Honda part number 90487-700-000), and then grind down the steeting nut "lip" so it is slightly lower as compared to the shim.  As is documented in other threads, the upper bearing top side doesn't fit into the steering nut "lip", so something had to be done.



The red circled area was my first attempt to grind down the "lip", was trying to go nice and flat.  I quickly realized that with my Dremel, I'd never have ended up with a decently flat surface.  After some research, I found a Honda part (the shim in the following pics), and came up with Plan B - to only grind down the "lip" part way.  That way, I'm left with a very good flat surface for the shim and the bearing to sit on.

I also found this on Fastenal - it looks like this would work, too.  The benefit of the Fastenal part is the thickness.  I believe that you wouldn't have to machine down the "lip" at all.  The dimensions check out anyway:

http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/details/11508316?searchMode=productSearch&zipcode=&filterByStore=&filterByVendingMachine=



Comparison of shim and bearing.



Shim and bearing stacked.



Shim laying in steering nut.

[spiffy587]

I am installing the all balls kit on my 77 cb750k, i dont have any of the old bearing parts to measure. Judging by the thread i would just need to use the small spacer on the lower tree and diregard the thick washer and top seal? My lower race broke into 3 pieces when pounding it out and scored the neck, am i f***ed now?

[raymond10078]

On my 78 auto 750 - it was as you described - the thinner spacer, then the lower seal, then the lower bearing - and no seal on top.  The thicker spacer was not used.

In regards to your gouge - can you dremel it - or use something to grind down the material that is raised above the machined surface?  I wouldn't say you are screwed - based on your pic. 

[spiffy587]

It catches on my nail i was going to use some emery cloth, it is on the outside of the race so i dont think it will cause too much harm i hope. As far as grinding down the top nut is that necesary?

[raymond10078]

For my bike - yes.  Otherwise, the contact area on the top of the bearing was next to nothing.  The bearing should seat against a nice flat surface.  The raised area was not flat.  Maybe you'll get lucky, and your bearing will seat fine. 

[spiffy587]

Well i hit that gouge with some emery cloth and it is deep, i, hoping as long as i knock down the edge it will be fine.

[flybox1]

Once you tighten everything down, the lower bearing might not seat all the way up if you use the thinner spacer.  Go with the thicker one when in doubt.
Spacer, dust seal, bearing.

[fendersrule]

SUCCESS!!

OK, the underside of the adjuster nut / dust shield has this raised circle inside.  On the stock setup, the upper bearing race fits inside this circle.  On the new installation, the new dust seal sits ON this circle.  This accounts for the extra few mm.  The new upper bearing, WITHOUT the dust seal, fits inside the circle just as the original did.






So, I reassembled the upper bearing leaving the upper dust seal out, since it really doesn't seal against anything at all.  With the tightness on the bearings set, and the upper triple clamp reinstalled, the gap at the headlight ears has disappeared and they fit just as snug as at the beginning.  The adjuster nut / dust shield looks good, too.  I think I'll be good.  No home-made spacers or shims required!








So, as far as I'm concerned, this is complete.  And, this makes this a bolt-in installation (other than the heating/freezing/pressing issues).  The kit just includes a few extra parts  (a thick spacer and a dust seal).


Joeb, I DID install the lower dust seal.  Look again at the picture showing the completed pressing.  It's there.

I HAVE THE SAME issue with my CB450 installing the all-balls bearing kit. I used the thin spacer, but the ears had too much gap! So I thought in order to remove the gap, I simply should just remove the shim. Bad idea, as just today I found that out (safely).

So I'm left with the same dilmena. I ordered my SECOND All Balls kit, and this time the thinner shim is going on for sure.

So all you did was leave out the upper deal seal behind the tensioner? Anyone else recommend this? With the CB450 and the AllBalls bearings, the bearing sits ON the raised ridge and not inside. Probably because the tensioner nut is smaller….

What is this about people cutting down on the teeth behind the tensioner nut? I wonder if both things would be necessary to fix the fork ear spacing.

If one were to grind down the ridge, won't this cause the nut and the "cup" to separate? I'm thinking that I can weld this together from the outside if so.

Comments? Definitely in need of help here.

[fendersrule]

Had the model shop at work do this for me in just an hour or so. Wow, what an amazing job. We'll see how well it removes that gap.

[fendersrule]

Now, if you grind down the "ridge", you will find that the bearing makes direct contact with the nut. perfect. When you throw on the seal however, you'll find that the "cup" part of the tensioner nut is making the contact. Ditch that All Balls seal and do something really simple and clever that will last just as long and be just as protective:



This is an ideal solution if you find that the bearing doesn't fit inside of the "ridge"--which likely will throw off your gap between your top tree and your fork ears. You'll get a perfect fit, better contact with the tensioner nut, and a great seal on your top bearing.

[Johnie]

fenders - was looking at your pics here, does this look like a 450 top tree?

[andrewk]

There's a piece of paper in the bearing kit that describes grinding that ridge down like you've done.  That ridge is the source of the fork ear misalignment.

I don't think you're really sealing anything there with that o-ring.  Maybe it's wider than it looks in the pic.  A seal between the inner and outer race doesn't do much good if there's no seal between the outer race and the steer tube, as there is on the bottom.

At any rate, I find the upper seal to not be needed.  The cup and triple tree protect things well enough.

[fendersrule]

yep. you are correct andrew. the seal is only serving to reduce some of the "ooze" that would come out of the bearing. It doesn't seal the race. So at best, it's a marginal improvement but yes, the actual tensioner nut provides the protection.

My ears are now aligned, and all is gold!

[Maurice]

FYI AllBalls now includes a washer in their kit to go between spanner nut and top dust seal. Similar to what kandrtech describes:

[img url=https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-X7L7bb-Z7kk/U5xuxmPoxRI/AAAAAAAAC-Y/-5aeMQje4s4/s1024-d/20140614_114220.jpg][/img]