Topic: Truer words were never spoken involving motorcycles!

[DaveBarbier]

Thought this thread was about needing a dealer to put a zip tie on a Harley?!

Things start out so simple, but humans make them complex. Bikes as well as forum posts, haha. It's our nature.

[chewbacca5000]

I am grateful to all those who have shared their knowledge with me on this forum.  The breath and depth of skills on this forum is mind boggling.  I have been able to do things I never thought possible before and really have gained lots of transferable mechanical skills.

Trying to solve some of these problems really ups your life skills and game.  Thanks guys!  Off to the store to buy more zip ties.

[evanphi]

Off to the store to buy more zip ties.

I buy black 4" in bulk. Keeps all my vintage bikes together.

I buy multi-size kits in bulk... Keeps my house from falling apart.

[Stev-o]

Off to the store to buy more zip ties.

Come to think about, I need some too!  I like the small black ones to zip my control wiring to clutch and throttle cables, no though-handle bar wiring for me!

[Duke McDukiedook]

New, well designed, feature rich, good quality parts that simplify the wiring aren't for everyone .

...and, electronics are hard to fix when sitting next to the campfire 1000 miles from home!

Yeah, when that electronic thingus goes tits up in the middle of the desert it won't be so great then! 

[beemerbum]

Complexity for the sake of complexity! You ain't seen nuthin til you seen a BMW six cylinder with its clothes off! That's exactly why I like my CB 750's and my old slash5 beemer.

[DH]

Nowadays no matter if its a bike car, etc, it usually has some type of electronic systems management. The complexity issue becomes even more of a problem if you can't readily get information to service anything.
And if information is available, you gotta pay up. Nothing is free, and everything requires special tools.
We all have to embrace the future, but it's scary in some ways. My granddaughter grabbed the manual window
crank in my Ranger the other day and was amazed at how it worked. She's eight years old.....Wow grandpa,
that's cool!

[70CB750]

Manual window cranks in my Jeep still work  - after 29 years of use 

[HondaMan]

Nowadays no matter if its a bike car, etc, it usually has some type of electronic systems management. The complexity issue becomes even more of a problem if you can't readily get information to service anything.
And if information is available, you gotta pay up. Nothing is free, and everything requires special tools.
We all have to embrace the future, but it's scary in some ways. My granddaughter grabbed the manual window
crank in my Ranger the other day and was amazed at how it worked. She's eight years old.....Wow grandpa,
that's cool!

The entire computer-in-the-car thing was driven 100% by government regulations (spelled E-P-A) that started in 1968, over emissions issues (mostly due to GM's lack of ability to meet the emissions levels). I personally still find it appalling that, over 40 years later, I cannot get 20 MPG out of any 'computerized' car I have (my 1979 Fairmont has a carburetor instead), because it is so busy 'managing' the fuel for me. I also miss being able to use up an entire set of rear tires in 2000 miles, if I chose to one week or another, with my 375 HP Ford...and even THAT one got 18 MPG at freeway speeds. My Explorer, with an engine 1/3 as big, has never seen more than 17 MPG, ever, and usually gets 12 MPG. And, it won't go faster than 91 MPH, either.

Oh-and, my Fairmont meets all emissions tests up to 1996 levels, without a computer...

[DH]

It seems that with all the complexity though, that they are at least pretty good at controlling emissions, evap. etc. as an example.
And that's a good thing. But I can't understand the lower mileage issues either..Complexity hits home: I worked on a Saturn View that would start, run for 1 sec., and die. It had a history of weird anti theft problems before it died in a parking lot and had to be towed. The power windows wouldn't work either. After much time spent
 head scratching and futile attempts to communicate with the ECM, and on a tip from a tech line, we were able to get a fragment of information through the INSTRUMENT CLUSTER MODULE that pointed toward a bad BODY CONTROL MODULE. Totally going out on a limb, we overnighted a body control module, had the car flat beded to the dealer
along with the new module so they could program the thing. VIOLA, it ran and the power windows worked.
Don't want to sound like an old fart, but WHY is this necessary? I am by no means a technical expert, and
I know there is a purpose for everything but it makes me question why they design this stuff the WAY they do.
The american stuff is hairy enough, but, and i won't go too far here, the European stuff is crazy. Maybe the answer to my question is... When it breaks, you're pretty much helpless, and "they" don't want you messing with it.
Sorry for the rant, this thread could go on some long tangents, and my comment is NOT "aimed" at tech guys, (I just don't understand) so no offense intended;)  Bikes are getting just like the cars, the technology is
shared, and the control is taken away from the owner.  jmo

[70CB750]

Nowadays no matter if its a bike car, etc, it usually has some type of electronic systems management. The complexity issue becomes even more of a problem if you can't readily get information to service anything.
And if information is available, you gotta pay up. Nothing is free, and everything requires special tools.
We all have to embrace the future, but it's scary in some ways. My granddaughter grabbed the manual window
crank in my Ranger the other day and was amazed at how it worked. She's eight years old.....Wow grandpa,
that's cool!

The entire computer-in-the-car thing was driven 100% by government regulations (spelled E-P-A) that started in 1968, over emissions issues (mostly due to GM's lack of ability to meet the emissions levels). I personally still find it appalling that, over 40 years later, I cannot get 20 MPG out of any 'computerized' car I have (my 1979 Fairmont has a carburetor instead), because it is so busy 'managing' the fuel for me. I also miss being able to use up an entire set of rear tires in 2000 miles, if I chose to one week or another, with my 375 HP Ford...and even THAT one got 18 MPG at freeway speeds. My Explorer, with an engine 1/3 as big, has never seen more than 17 MPG, ever, and usually gets 12 MPG. And, it won't go faster than 91 MPH, either.

Oh-and, my Fairmont meets all emissions tests up to 1996 levels, without a computer...

I fought with the craperator Carter BBD in my Jeep for 2 years and I was able to pass MD emissions with it.  After that I retrofitted TBI from 4.3 GM engine and never looked back.

The BBD was not that bad carburetor on the beginning, but the emission systems they hung on it to make it pass was just insane mess.  Just for ilustration:

[Phinn]

It seems that with all the complexity though, that they are at least pretty good at controlling emissions, evap. etc. as an example.
And that's a good thing. But I can't understand the lower mileage issues either..Complexity hits home: I worked on a Saturn View that would start, run for 1 sec., and die. It had a history of weird anti theft problems before it died in a parking lot and had to be towed. The power windows wouldn't work either. After much time spent
 head scratching and futile attempts to communicate with the ECM, and on a tip from a tech line, we were able to get a fragment of information through the INSTRUMENT CLUSTER MODULE that pointed toward a bad BODY CONTROL MODULE. Totally going out on a limb, we overnighted a body control module, had the car flat beded to the dealer
along with the new module so they could program the thing. VIOLA, it ran and the power windows worked.
Don't want to sound like an old fart, but WHY is this necessary? I am by no means a technical expert, and
I know there is a purpose for everything but it makes me question why they design this stuff the WAY they do.
The american stuff is hairy enough, but, and i won't go too far here, the European stuff is crazy. Maybe the answer to my question is... When it breaks, you're pretty much helpless, and "they" don't want you messing with it.
Sorry for the rant, this thread could go on some long tangents, and my comment is NOT "aimed" at tech guys, (I just don't understand) so no offense intended;)  Bikes are getting just like the cars, the technology is
shared, and the control is taken away from the owner.  jmo

The drive toward more computerization of cars is entirely driven by government.

The biggest factor, hands down, is the dance between manufacturers and regulators about emissions. They've been gaming each other for decades. The VW and Jeep emissions-computer code scandals are just the most recent examples.

The second factor is how copyright, trade secret and patent laws make the software for these computers essentially off-limits to the buyer.

The third factor is that auto makers care more about selling semi-disposable cars instead of something that lasts. The lack of long-term reliability is more of a benefit than a problem, from their perspective, because it sells more cars. And the lack of user-serviceability means more trips back to the dealer. It's sort of like how Microsoft doesn't actually sell you software -- they license it to you. Car makers like the idea that you're not really "buying" a car, but rather that you're subscribing to their Brand X car-usage subscription service. That way, you don't pay just the once, but keep coming back to them to pay, again and again.

[ofreen]

The american stuff is hairy enough, but, and i won't go too far here, the European stuff is crazy.

Another one from Scotty where he mentions the European brands. Anybody got a spare 2 grand handy? -

[DH]

The american stuff is hairy enough, but, and i won't go too far here, the European stuff is crazy.

Another one from Scotty where he mentions the European brands. Anybody got a spare 2 grand handy? -

As a former grunt, I can relate to what he says. He has interesting way of putting things though, eh?
Actually you'd need 2 grand and someone who could understand what the data means.

[camelman]

I found a neat article about preserving tradesmen/craftsmen knowledge, which would do away with those pesky zip ties. These guys remind me of my time working at FABCAR USA. Now THAT was a fun job!

https://www.tinmantech.com/supporting-the-craftsman.php

[madmtnmotors]

It seems that with all the complexity though, that they are at least pretty good at controlling emissions, evap. etc. as an example.
And that's a good thing. But I can't understand the lower mileage issues either..Complexity hits home: I worked on a Saturn View that would start, run for 1 sec., and die. It had a history of weird anti theft problems before it died in a parking lot and had to be towed. The power windows wouldn't work either. After much time spent
 head scratching and futile attempts to communicate with the ECM, and on a tip from a tech line, we were able to get a fragment of information through the INSTRUMENT CLUSTER MODULE that pointed toward a bad BODY CONTROL MODULE. Totally going out on a limb, we overnighted a body control module, had the car flat beded to the dealer
along with the new module so they could program the thing. VIOLA, it ran and the power windows worked.
Don't want to sound like an old fart, but WHY is this necessary? I am by no means a technical expert, and
I know there is a purpose for everything but it makes me question why they design this stuff the WAY they do.
The american stuff is hairy enough, but, and i won't go too far here, the European stuff is crazy. Maybe the answer to my question is... When it breaks, you're pretty much helpless, and "they" don't want you messing with it.
Sorry for the rant, this thread could go on some long tangents, and my comment is NOT "aimed" at tech guys, (I just don't understand) so no offense intended;)  Bikes are getting just like the cars, the technology is
shared, and the control is taken away from the owner.  jmo

Went through the exact same thing a year and a half ago with my 2002 Saturn Vue. The body control module hands off the signal to the fuel pump from the ECM, so when the BCM fails the fuel pump (and gauges) won't work. I almost wired the fuel pump direct, but in the end ponied up the $400 for the BCM, and another $100 for the dealer to program it. The service department made it clear that there were no guarantees because they did not do the diagnosis.  Now this did not sit well with me, because I know that a computer can be easily "bricked" by improper flashing of data, but everything worked as it should. 

I am not at all happy about the continued trend towards "complexity for complexities sake". Now I'll give you the ECM for controlling the fuel injection, but give me back the rest of my damn car! 

[mrbreeze]

I've been out of the business for a couple of years now but when I was wrenching, I encountered a few strange things with Saturn repairs. I've put timing chains in them, fuel pumps, and other common repairs. I believe it was a Vue v-6 that needed a thermostat and it's located deep in the engine under the intake manifold so it's a bit labor intensive. I recall a Saturn that needed some kind of weird wizardry with the scanner to cut off the check engine light after repairs. Came to find out that that v-6 engine was made by Opel out of Germany. I never did care for working on German vehicles. They don't give a guy in America very good info to begin with so if you're not specifically trained to work on them they will give you fits. VW's latest stunt doesn't really surprise me. They sure are trying to kiss a$$ to their customers now that they got caught. I think VW is the one German car I dislike the most out of all of them.

[HondaMan]

I've been out of the business for a couple of years now but when I was wrenching, I encountered a few strange things with Saturn repairs. I've put timing chains in them, fuel pumps, and other common repairs. I believe it was a Vue v-6 that needed a thermostat and it's located deep in the engine under the intake manifold so it's a bit labor intensive. I recall a Saturn that needed some kind of weird wizardry with the scanner to cut off the check engine light after repairs. Came to find out that that v-6 engine was made by Opel out of Germany. I never did care for working on German vehicles. They don't give a guy in America very good info to begin with so if you're not specifically trained to work on them they will give you fits. VW's latest stunt doesn't really surprise me. They sure are trying to kiss a$$ to their customers now that they got caught. I think VW is the one German car I dislike the most out of all of them.

While they got "caught", there isn't really much the EPA can do to them: they actually did MEET the law! It states very clearly that the cars must meet the emissions tests when tested. It doesn't say ANYTHING about after you drive away....I tip my hat to those clever engineers!

[DH]

It seems that with all the complexity though, that they are at least pretty good at controlling emissions, evap. etc. as an example.
And that's a good thing. But I can't understand the lower mileage issues either..Complexity hits home: I worked on a Saturn View that would start, run for 1 sec., and die. It had a history of weird anti theft problems before it died in a parking lot and had to be towed. The power windows wouldn't work either. After much time spent
 head scratching and futile attempts to communicate with the ECM, and on a tip from a tech line, we were able to get a fragment of information through the INSTRUMENT CLUSTER MODULE that pointed toward a bad BODY CONTROL MODULE. Totally going out on a limb, we overnighted a body control module, had the car flat beded to the dealer
along with the new module so they could program the thing. VIOLA, it ran and the power windows worked.
Don't want to sound like an old fart, but WHY is this necessary? I am by no means a technical expert, and
I know there is a purpose for everything but it makes me question why they design this stuff the WAY they do.
The american stuff is hairy enough, but, and i won't go too far here, the European stuff is crazy. Maybe the answer to my question is... When it breaks, you're pretty much helpless, and "they" don't want you messing with it.
Sorry for the rant, this thread could go on some long tangents, and my comment is NOT "aimed" at tech guys, (I just don't understand) so no offense intended;)  Bikes are getting just like the cars, the technology is
shared, and the control is taken away from the owner.  jmo

Went through the exact same thing a year and a half ago with my 2002 Saturn Vue. The body control module hands off the signal to the fuel pump from the ECM, so when the BCM fails the fuel pump (and gauges) won't work. I almost wired the fuel pump direct, but in the end ponied up the $400 for the BCM, and another $100 for the dealer to program it. The service department made it clear that there were no guarantees because they did not do the diagnosis.  Now this did not sit well with me, because I know that a computer can be easily "bricked" by improper flashing of data, but everything worked as it should. 

I am not at all happy about the continued trend towards "complexity for complexities sake". Now I'll give you the ECM for controlling the fuel injection, but give me back the rest of my damn car! 

Good to hear you got it sorted. Wasn't it fun? ...Along the same lines, Did anyone watch Jay Lenno's garage where they test drove some
prototype Audis?  According to one engineer, one of the cars specifically, drove itself up Pikes Peak without a driver, and waited at the top to be picked up. Crazy.

[madmtnmotors]

I encountered a few strange things with Saturn repairs. I believe it was a Vue v-6 that needed a thermostat and it's located deep in the engine under the intake manifold so it's a bit labor intensive.

Yep. Both the upper and lower intake manifolds have to be removed in order to service the thermostat on the early Saturn Vue V6. The upper intake manifold even has to be removed to change the damn spark plugs. The early Saturn V6 was indeed German made and was used in the turbo Saab and the Cadillac Caterra. It's a good running engine with good power, but definitely not very shade tree mechanic friendly.

The fixture tool for holding the dual overhead cams and the crank (four cams total) for timing belt replacement cost over $800! I finally made my own (for less than $20) and have actually used it twice since it now has over 230,000 miles.

[mrbreeze]

I sure don't!!! We have enough bull sh!t to put up with as consumers. Anything that has to do with getting a car to pass a smog test is a pain but if you have to go back over and over it's over the edge PITA. I lived in Wyoming for 12 years and didn't have to worry about it but California is the worst of all states where EPA is concerned. And I don't like VW's to begin with!! Especially the new beetles and their cheesy headlites that burn out.....sh!tty egr systems.....plastic impeller water pumps.....valve crashing timing belts. I could keep going but I won't!!!

[ofreen]

I think VW is the one German car I dislike the most out of all of them.

You and me both, Fred.  My wife had a '74 Super Beetle when I met her.  Her brother worked on it for her, but when I showed up he was happy she had a found a sucker to relieve him of that duty.  That car was a POS.  It is a measure of the goodness of my wife that I didn't dump her after having to work on that thing a couple of times.  Whenever I hear the phrase "German engineering" I think of the quaint design feature that used air out of the spare tire to pump windshield washer fluid onto the windshield.  I have a lot of stories about that car, and it was a happy day when I found somebody to sell it to.  Since then I've had experience with various Rabbits, and a Passat and a Jetta.  They are all the goofiest goddam things to work on. 

[mrbreeze]

That's for sure Greg. If I had to have one it would have to be an old bug but I don't even like those! My ex had an 82' Jetta that I always had problems with. I had a Haynes manual for it that was as useful as a screen door on a submarine! Around 1989 we replaced it with a Camry and suddenly life was wonderful again. All in all I have more good things to say for Japanese vehicles.....Toyota in particular. I find that I don't have to ever hardly work on them and when I do it's pretty well cut & dried. They are the most dependable vehicles I have owned. I'm an old school Chevy guy but don't really care for those anymore if they are newer than a 72 or so.......pickups excluded.

[goldarrow]

150k miles running on stock spark plugs, just oil change and air filter clean every so often.  That's my Honda Element, still running strong

[mrbreeze]

Some people like cars for prestige, others like em to work on. I like em to drive and do it most of the time. Honda would be my second choice to a Toyota. Not real keen on Nissan. I find them more difficult to work on but still way better than Euro. I'm really not putting this stuff out for anything other than personal preference and observations I have made working on cars in general.