Topic: "not" the solenoid - parasitic draw

[grumpy]

should I be reading 12.7v across the 2 main contacts* of the solenoid when the bike is off?

I'm gonna guess that's a big no.
I'm also gonna guess that the starter motor is cooked.



*the ones that go to the battery and the started motor.

[scottly]

Hey Grump, yes, you should read 12+ volts across the main solenoid contacts with the bike off, and zero volts when the starter is cranking.

[grumpy]

really?
I thought that if there's power going through those lugs then the starter would be spinning.

[Garage_guy_chris]

Yes because the battery is always connected to the one side and the starter motor on the other side is very low resistance and will test like a ground.

If you check with your meter in ohms between the starter side of the solenoid and the starter body you will probably find a resistance of like 1 ohm indicating that the starter is likely fine. Infinite or Open would indicate a dead starter.

Whats the problem with the starting system?

you can jumper the solenoid with two pieces of wire one to batt + and one to batt - . it should click and connect the battery side to starter side, thus running the starter

[grumpy]

the main issue is when you hit the start button the solenoid clicks but noting happens.

BUT, man, there are other weird symptoms.
EG the turn lights are acting funny - intermittently, of course. Voltage across the battery terminals may or may not drop and stay low...

BTW shorting the main solenoid lugs w/ a screwdriver does not get the starter spinning.

[scottly]

really?
I thought that if there's power going through those lugs then the starter would be spinning.

There's power going to one lug, but not out the other lug, hence the 12 volt difference. When the solenoid is activated via the starter button, the powered lug is "shorted" to the starter side lug.
On another note, are you familiar with Pierce Manifolds, there in Garlicville?

[grumpy]

On another note, are you familiar with Pierce Manifolds, there in Garlicville?

no but their website looks interesting...

There's power going to one lug, but not out the other lug, hence the 12 volt difference. When the solenoid is activated via the starter button, the powered lug is "shorted" to the starter side lug.

oh yeah, duh.
been a long day.

[scottly]

the main issue is when you hit the start button the solenoid clicks but noting happens.

BUT, man, there are other weird symptoms.
EG the turn lights are acting funny - intermittently, of course. Voltage across the battery terminals may or may not drop and stay low...

BTW shorting the main solenoid lugs w/ a screwdriver does not get the starter spinning.

Check all of the heavy wire connections to the battery, the motor ground, and both of the solenoid wires, starting with the battery.

[grumpy]

I'll have to put it off til tomorrow. Gotta sleep.

I'd try kicking it just to see if it'll start but lucky for me I jacked some tendons in my right knee. And I'm grumpy about it.

[scottly]

G'night 

[martin99]

the main issue is when you hit the start button the solenoid clicks but noting happens.

BUT, man, there are other weird symptoms.
EG the turn lights are acting funny - intermittently, of course. Voltage across the battery terminals may or may not drop and stay low...

BTW shorting the main solenoid lugs w/ a screwdriver does not get the starter spinning.

Just a thought, probably nothing to do with your starting issue, but the weird symptoms you describe might also relate to the fusebox. I had similar stuff going on - in particular the turn signals -  until I upgraded mine to a 'hondaman' type box.

[PeWe]

I had a bad battery once I noticed when driving on a dark curvy road. Headlight switched off when rpms was under 4000rpm. All Turn lights started to glow constantly. I had to keep the rpm up to be able to see.

[grumpy]

actually, I have a Hondaman fusebox 

I *think* the battery is OK, holds a charge well, never any problem starting - until now.

damnedest thing. it been running great for many, many months. it sat for 10 days because of my knee injury and now pppht. somehow something went bad by sitting in the garage for a week and a half. I'm thinking there's an exposed wire somewhere due to 45 year old insulation - I just hope it's not in the handlebars.
I think I'm going to clean every damn connection on the thing. I did that about 4 years ago, it got rid of a phantom voltage drop issue. I guess I'll also have to check whether any wire that isn't green has continuity with ground.
I'd really like to replace the entire loom with some decent gauge wire and a bus box instead of the rat's nest.
 

[Kevin D]

the main issue is when you hit the start button the solenoid clicks but nothing happens.

Mine did that, a long time ago. I took the solenoid apart, cleaned it, but it didn't fix the problem. Took the starter apart, got new brushes, cleaned where the brushes ride, it has been good since then.

[Restoration Fan]

the main issue is when you hit the start button the solenoid clicks but noting happens.

BUT, man, there are other weird symptoms.
EG the turn lights are acting funny - intermittently, of course. Voltage across the battery terminals may or may not drop and stay low...

BTW shorting the main solenoid lugs w/ a screwdriver does not get the starter spinning.

Knowing that fact and the fact you're hearing clicking from the solenoid, I don't think the issue is the solenoid.  Check your wiring on the other side between the solenoid and the starter.  I think you have a short somewhere.

Here's why:  the solenoid is nothing more than an electromagnet.  When you press the starter button and your solenoid is working, it closes the gap and makes a connection, allowing power to go through that connection down to the starter.  When you release the starter button, the electromagnet releases and the starter no longer gets power.  Well, if your starter solenoid is faulty and you need to start your bike, you can always short the solenoid lugs and this just bridges the gap that the electromagnet is no longer making.  If you're shorting those lugs and the starter still isn't turning, then the problem definitely is not in your solenoid. 

(Also, the clicking you hear is the electromagnet as it's closing the gap and the 2 sides are touching to make the connection...that's the click you hear.)

[scottly]

I think you have a short somewhere.

Shorts blow fuses or over-heat wires.

To test the solenoid with a voltmeter, connect the negative meter lead to ground, and the positive meter lead to the solenoid on the starter side post, and press the starter button. It should read 12v;  slightly less if the starter is turning and loading the battery down. If there is voltage present, then the solenoid is working, and the starter may be at fault. If no reading with the button pressed, move the meter lead to the battery side post and measure the voltage. If it reads 12v with the button pressed, and the solenoid clicks, the solenoid is not making contact. If the post reads 12v without the button pressed, but drops significantly when the button is pressed, it means you have a connection issue.

[grumpy]

now tuning the key makes the VOM go to zero at the battery. kill switch position does not matter.

disconnected the battery, started looking for shorts:
 I read 78.6 oms between the black wires (at any of the connectors) and ground. there shouldn't be any continuity at all, right?

all fuses are intact, by the way.

[scottly]

Is that zero reading measured directly across the battery terminals themselves, or at the lugs of the wires connected to the terminals?
Yes, there should be continuity between the black wire and ground; with the ignition switch on, and the battery disconnected, the reading should be less than 7 ohms (edit: with a stock mechanical regulator) , depending on neutral switch, full time headlight, etc. 

[grumpy]

I got that 78ohm reading with the key off
(SS V-reg, in neutral, no lights))

zero VDC was with a clip shoved under the cover over the + terminal and the engine ground

[scottly]

Don't worry about resistance measurements for now. Measure the voltage at the battery terminals, if it's good there, but bad when measured from the battery + to engine ground, then you mostly likely have a poor ground connection between the battery and the engine.
You've got to get your bike fixed; you may have to help transport a certain lizard soon.

[turboed13b]

First you should check to see if your battery is dead not sure why everyone is trying to make you check everything on the bike except the battery.

Voltage at battery should be 12.8. With igntion on and kill switch on there should be a small voltage drop if voltage drops rapidly then battery is bad.


The battery could just need a charge also but if it doesn't hold voltage then it is bad.

[grumpy]

I'm not really geeking on the R measurements, I'm just looking for shorts and/or V loss.

I did clean the main engine ground and the other one up by the seat latch.

This is just weird. One day it works, then it doesn't a few days later. To me that says bad battery or loose wire but I can't prove either.
I guess I should load test the battery, though...

[Restoration Fan]

You may just have a bad starter.  Have you tried pulling the starter and testing it by hooking it directly to a battery?

Just hook up that wire coming from it to the positive terminal of the battery and then run any wire (or alligator clips) from the negative terminal and ground it against the body of the starter.  If it doesn't start spinning and spinning freely, then you have a starter issue.

[turboed13b]

You may just have a bad starter.  Have you tried pulling the starter and testing it by hooking it directly to a battery?

Just hook up that wire coming from it to the positive terminal of the battery and then run any wire (or alligator clips) from the negative terminal and ground it against the body of the starter.  If it doesn't start spinning and spinning freely, then you have a starter issue.

Still won't prove if it is the starter or not. He needs to look at the source first which is the battery. All of these test are going to fail if the battery isn't up to spec and will lead to replacement of parts that are perfectly fine.

[Restoration Fan]

Still won't prove if it is the starter or not. He needs to look at the source first which is the battery. All of these test are going to fail if the battery isn't up to spec and will lead to replacement of parts that are perfectly fine.

I'm not following your logic.  If he uses the bike's battery to test the starter and it spins the starter, how is that any different from the draw when it's hooked up through the solenoid?  It's not like the solenoid is causing that much of a difference in the battery draw.

Now if it does not spin the starter, I suppose that doesn't necessarily guarantee the starter is bad (if the battery is indeed the problem) but if the starter does spin, then you have at least eliminated the starter as the problem.

[turboed13b]

Still won't prove if it is the starter or not. He needs to look at the source first which is the battery. All of these test are going to fail if the battery isn't up to spec and will lead to replacement of parts that are perfectly fine.

I'm not following your logic.  If he uses the bike's battery to test the starter and it spins the starter, how is that any different from the draw when it's hooked up through the solenoid?  It's not like the solenoid is causing that much of a difference in the battery draw.

Now if it does not spin the starter, I suppose that doesn't necessarily guarantee the starter is bad (if the battery is indeed the problem) but if the starter does spin, then you have at least eliminated the starter as the problem.

When you remove the starter from the engine and testing on the battery you are not testing under load. Even if the battery is dead it can still spin the starter and then you are just chasing your tail.

Just trying to say that the battery should be the first thing to look at before anything else. I just see people on here chase a problem for weeks because everyone suggest other things other than the simplest and most common problems.

[Restoration Fan]

When you remove the starter from the engine and testing on the battery you are not testing under load. Even if the battery is dead it can still spin the starter and then you are just chasing your tail.

Just trying to say that the battery should be the first thing to look at before anything else. I just see people on here chase a problem for weeks because everyone suggest other things other than the simplest and most common problems.

*shrug* OK, if you say so.  The only other load on the battery (which I can think of) at the time of hitting the starter is the running lights and headlight.  If he has the switch to turn those off, then the load is the same.  The starter button passes directly through the solenoid, which has a minute draw itself but the 'load' I think you're thinking of comes from the coils, spark, etc.  His problem is that the starter itself isn't even turning when he jumpers the solenoid.

And since this appears to be a 750 that we're talking about, in that case, I wouldn't remove the starter.  On the 550 or 500, the starter is very easily removed.  On the 750, it's a little more involved.  So I'd pull the battery from the battery box and bring it down by the starter to test.  You can do your battery electrical testing there as well.

[turboed13b]

You are forgetting about the load that the engine puts on the starter. The starter draws more current in the engine vs. out.

He already tried starting the bike by shorting the solenoid post which effectively is the same as placing it directly on the battery.

[Restoration Fan]

The engine doesn't put a load on the battery until after the starter turns it over.  The starter isn't turning right now. 
I'm just suggesting he can very simply rule the starter out as the issue if it turns over cleanly with it hooked straight to the battery.

I'm not saying that it means that the battery is good.  But, IMO even a weakened battery should turn the starter motor slightly.  The fact that it's not turning at all makes me believe the issue isn't the battery (or at least solely the battery). 

[turboed13b]

A weak or dead battery will not turn over a engine. I had a friend who was too cheap to buy a new battery because his was dead but the bike still ran fine just had to kick start it because the starter wouldn't turn. Finally bought a battery a couple weeks ago and starter and everything is fine. You also see people on here with weak charging systems complaining about having to kick start their bikes sometimes because the starter won't turn over.

Yes there is a load even when the starter isn't turning. It just means there isn't enough power to turn the engine over. The only way there would be no load is the starter having an open circuit and for that to happen the brushes would have to fall off or somehow not touching the commutator.


Of course testing the starter with a known good battery the way you say is a good way to see if it is the starter or not but again the battery has to check out good first.

[Restoration Fan]

Yes there is a load even when the starter isn't turning. It just means there isn't enough power to turn the engine over. The only way there would be no load is the starter having an open circuit and for that to happen the brushes would have to fall off or somehow not touching the commutator.

I'm sorry but I simply don't believe that is true.  The whole purpose of the solenoid is so that the starter DOESN'T turn all the time.  When you press the starter, the solenoid's magnets connect and it completes the circuit to allow electrical current through to the starter.  When you release the starter button, the solenoid magnets release and the flow to the starter stops.  Otherwise, your starter would be turning the entire time the engine is running.

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Fine, check your battery, grumpy.  I suspect you'll find that it's fine...then you can check your starter.

[turboed13b]

Yes there is a load even when the starter isn't turning. It just means there isn't enough power to turn the engine over. The only way there would be no load is the starter having an open circuit and for that to happen the brushes would have to fall off or somehow not touching the commutator.

I'm sorry but I simply don't believe that is true.  The whole purpose of the solenoid is so that the starter DOESN'T turn all the time.  When you press the starter, the solenoid's magnets connect and it completes the circuit to allow electrical current through to the starter.  When you release the starter button, the solenoid magnets release and the flow to the starter stops.  Otherwise, your starter would be turning the entire time the engine is running.

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Fine, check your battery, grumpy.  I suspect you'll find that it's fine...then you can check your starter.

Of course there is no load when power is not applied I am not sure how you got where it does since we have been talking about applying power whether it be directly by the battery or hitting the start button.

He also already tested the starter directly by shorting the lugs on the solenoid. Also reading back if I am reading correctly he has 0V with the ignition on so battery sounds like the problem to me.

[grumpy]

update -

load test of the battery failed. replaced it, now it runs.

HOWEVER, it ain't over. there's a .5A parasitic draw - or there was. I unplugged the key from the harness and the draw went to zero. must be dirty and/or worn.  gonna try to clean it.