Author Topic: Because I love debate... and I am bored  (Read 11184 times)

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Ebrandon

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Because I love debate... and I am bored
« on: October 31, 2006, 05:20:55 pm »
Last night I had the chance to see a screening of a documentary about the Intelligent Design vs. Evolution debate. It was smart, informed and funny. Then on the drive home (I was at a science conference) I happened to hear a radio show pushing intelligent design. So it got me to thinking, what do you guys think about it all? I am mainly interested in the idea that some people believe that Intelligent Design should be taught as a science, and an alternative to evolution. I will save my opinion for now so as not to sway the first few post. Please try to keep it civil, I would like a discussion about the issue and not an argument.  ;)

Offline aptech77

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2006, 05:55:08 pm »
Evolution, works for me!  ;D

Rocking-M

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 06:01:47 pm »
Ok, I'll jump on it :)

I'm a believer in the biblical record of creation. I further think that the "intelligent design" phraseology 
is nothing but a cop out. God as creator should be taught.

If evolution must be taught, which the monkey tale trial has insured, then it should be taught along
with equal presentation of God's creation. Either must be accepted by faith as neither has the
concrete proof necessary to be absolute in the minds of all. If so, we wouldn't be having this
discussion. As Jefferson said, truth can compete in the free market place of ideas and triumph. (I can look the
exact quote up if you want :) I had to go by memory)



Offline aptech77

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 06:04:41 pm »
 ;D

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 06:08:41 pm »
I'm an evolutionist myself. However, how would we know if evolution is not part of the grand plan (i.e., intelligent design). OR, that the theory of intelligent design is not just another evolutionary step in man's intellectual development?

Makes me tired just thinking about it.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline aptech77

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 06:10:23 pm »
I'm an evolutionist myself. However, how would we know if evolution is not part of the grand plan (i.e., intelligent design). OR, that the theory of intelligent design is not just another evolutionary step in man's intellectual development?

Makes me tired just thinking about it.

I second that. Around and Around we go.

anubiscycle

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 06:12:16 pm »
BOTH, there appears to be proof of both. If you use your brains. There can still be intelligent design as you put it and evolution. Just look at the cave fish that are blind as well as hundreds of other animals that have adapted to thier surroundings.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 07:13:59 pm by anubiscycle »

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 06:13:34 pm »
I believe we were put here by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

http://www.venganza.org/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open Letter To Kansas School Board

I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.



In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.

Sincerely Yours,

Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.

P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.


Offline bill440cars

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2006, 06:17:59 pm »



                          Evolution? I really wish we wouldn't go there. It could really get ugly.


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Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2006, 06:20:27 pm »
I believe in the great Unnameable and Unknowable.  Religeon is bullpucky and is so politicisuzed it doesn't count anymore.  People just need to make trouble because they aren't happy within themselves.  
Intelligent design and evolution are the same thing.  Why should they be exclusive?  God's only mistake was a whopper; giving man freewill.
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Offline DRam

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2006, 06:29:43 pm »
All right - what happened to my carefully worded reply?  It didn't post.  Second try:

To begin with, I am a Christian, believe God created everything we are aware of an probably a lot we are not.  Nothing in the Bible has jumped out at me as instructions on how that creation was done, and a timeline that is uncertain.  How long is God's day?  How long would six of them be?

It seems the pinnacle of pride to say that because we know God created everything that we know how it was done.  It is an equal excess of pride to say that because we are coming to a dim understanding of how it was done that there is no God.  Intellegent design is a religious belief, the scientific view (for lack of a better term) is a secular view.  In the United States, at least, our government is prohibited from making any law establishing a state religion.  That has been extended to mean teaching the precepts of any religion in school in an effort to foster belief.  It seems to me, then, that teaching Intellegent Design, which is a uniquely Christian belief, is prohibited by state and federal law.

The best way to handle the problem was demonstrated by a collegue as he began a unit on evolution in his high school Biology class.  As closely as memory allows he said, "We are beginning a unit on evolution.  State law mandates that evolution be taught in this course, so we will study it.  This is a theory, not a law, and all of you know the difference between a scientific theory and a scientific law.  There are other theories as to the origin of life, but they are not appropriate for discussion in school.  You should discuss this matter with your parents and decide what you want to believe.  I have my own beliefs, but they are personal and will not be discussed here.  That being said, please turn to page . . ."

A statement such as that was declared unconstitutional in Kentucky?  Tennessee?  Nevertheless I feel it is appropriate.  It does no harm to  recognize that there are different beliefs and certainly doesn't support one religion over another.


anubiscycle

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2006, 06:35:22 pm »
" the United States, at least, our government is prohibited from making any law establishing a state religion. "

Maybe the church should piss off and stop running marriage amendment ads on tv in Wisconsin. Any religion invloved in our government is no better than the inqusition.  ::) Shows intolerance and stupidity all wrapped in one nice package. Now that's Christ like huh?

Chronolgy in the Bible makes it no better than a repair manual that has had all of it's pages ripped out and then pasted in any random order. What was first? Plants or Light? Research this you will not believe the order. Who were the "Sons of God"? How about if Adam and Eve were first, where the hell did the people of Nod come from? Trust me my knives are sharp in this subject. Why don't we talk about the mention of dragons in the bible.  ::) ???

Or we can move on to things that are not so sharp.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 06:46:42 pm by anubiscycle »

Offline nickjtc

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2006, 07:02:12 pm »
I'm an Evolutionist because for me there is no other rational answer to explain where we are at. I like the Darwinian model.

I have a hard time with 'religion' on the basis that there has been more human suffering in the name of 'God' than in anything else, throughout history. I'm being simplistic, I suppose, but if there was a single pre-emptive act of creation by one supreme being, it/he/she has shown a marked lack of interest in the well being of its/his/her lab experiment.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 09:04:39 pm by nickjtc »
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Offline aptech77

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 07:04:21 pm »
I'm an Evolutionist because for me there is no other rational answer to explain where we are at. I like the Darwininan model.

I have a hard time with 'religion' simply on the basis that there has been more human suffering in the name of 'God' than in anything else, throughout history. I'm being simplistic, I suppose, but if there was a single pre-emptive act of creation by one supreme being, it/he/she has shown a marked lack of interest in the well being of its/his/her lab experiment.


 ;D

Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 08:43:44 pm »
Anubis said what I was thinking: why not both?

Maybe God created apes and they evolved into man....I guess that would mean that even God can fail sometimes ;)

Science gives us Evolution.  Religion gives us Creation.  Neither is infallible.


Offline ieism

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 10:49:11 pm »
Like Gandhi said:
“An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.”

So i'll have to go with the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory.   :P
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Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 12:59:32 am »
Darwin actually stated near the end of his life that his theories were flawed, and that anyone that looked hard enough at his research would see the hole in it and it would fail....  good thing people dont like doing research for themselves...


I have an interesting article i found somewhere...

http://cosmicfingerprints.com/infotheoryqa.htm

 a rather good read in my scientific opinion

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Offline oldbiker

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 02:30:25 am »
WHO CARES.  I'd rather spend the time on my hobbies.

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 03:42:13 am »
THen go hobbie and dont read

run along there ya whipper Snapper
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Ibsen

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2006, 04:00:20 am »
Is it cabin fever time already?  ;D


"Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of following my fancies as a butterfly, and was unconscious of my individuality as a man. Suddenly, I awoke, and there I lay, myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming that I am now a man."  Chuang Tzu 400 B.C., Chinese Philosopher

Offline 74cb750

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2006, 04:16:03 am »
You are definitely a butterfly.
Watch out for cross winds.
Laugh at least once a day.
Life  $ucks, then you die.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
God forces us to live with  non-believers to test our resolve.

anubiscycle

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2006, 06:11:26 am »
Anubis said what I was thinking: why not both?

Maybe God created apes and they evolved into man....I guess that would mean that even God can fail sometimes ;)

Science gives us Evolution.  Religion gives us Creation.  Neither is infallible.



<<<Is proof even apes can be smart  ;)

If any of us paid attention in biology (for those of us who took it in school). With some simple research, we quickly see that there are common patterns in everything around us. Think about this, everything is in threes. Past, Present, Future - Length, width, breadth - and the list goes on. Those examples may be a bit simplistic, I just did not want to loose anyone on this idea. But, really think about it. If chaos was true (which it is not), there would not be any patterns in nature as a whole. Even unrelated items are connected.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 06:19:05 am by anubiscycle »

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2006, 06:22:58 am »
that was the point of the article i posted

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Offline andy750

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2006, 07:43:14 am »
Whats inappropriate about two nude women?  Isnt this the OPEN forum?  ::)....I am not offended...I dont care if they evolved or were created like that...the end result is still good to look at  ;)...thanks for lightening the tone  8)

cheers
Andy
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 07:44:50 am by andy750 »
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Offline andy750

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2006, 08:07:23 am »
"BOTH, there appears to be proof of both."

Im curious to know what you consider "proof" of Intelligent Design?? As far as I am aware there is NO proof for the existence of God or for the theory of Intelligent Design. What proof do you have? It is ALL based on Faith. The Bible is not a factual document. It is based on fact but also has some non-fiction thrown in there as well. It was written by fallible men (like you or I) over a number of generations who took folklore and other stories and incorporated them into a book.

Evolution on the other hand is based on scientifc observations - genetics, fossill records ect. The Big Bang Theory is based on scientific observations and measurements. The existence of God is not required for it to be a vaild theory.

cheers
Andy

Edit: "Think about this, everything is in threes. .......- Length, width, breadth -"  -this is true only for the 2-dimensional mind..I prefer to think in 4-D (add height and time to your list)  8). And isnt width and breadth the same thing?  ???  -dictionary thinks so "width or breadth, which are the distance from side to side, measuring across the object at right angles to the length"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:44:26 am by andy750 »
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