Topic: Because I love debate... and I am bored

[martini]

What this debate alway comes down to is this: If God did not create the universe who did? No one, it has always existed. Well then, so has God. And around and around we go.

[anubiscycle]

What this debate alway comes down to is this: If God did not create the universe who did? No one, it has always existed. Well then, so has God. And around and around we go.

Quoting the fools with the science degrees who carbon date stuff, this is not true. Even the Bible scholars say there appears to be many creations if you will. Don't believe, just grab a Bible and hammer through the first half of Genesis. It appears that we are the third creation.

Also remember that toohu (fogive spelling) means to void. Like clearing a table, meaning that there was something first - then voided.


I told you my knives are sharp.

[Rhonda750F]

Interesting.
To answer the question,if Intelligent Design should be taught as a science.
I say no.
Intelligent design is a faith based theory that cannot be tested.  Faith in itself has no scientific merit therefore cannot be taught as a science.
As an alternative to evolution, YES.
Students should be let aware that other points of view and models that have both scientific and faith based roots.    
Teachers should challenge the students to explore these various theories/models and let them use their own reasoning to justify one or the other.
Who's right, who's wrong, that is not for any one person or government to decide.  Like some one said earlier about this subject, trying to reason one over the other it's an act of futility.  History has shown us the extent of this futility.  Hell, how many people have been killed for thinking differently be it religion, science, politics.  Civilizations annihilated, cultures erased, ideas forgotton all because a lack of understanding and knowledge.  Sad indeed.  

I believe I was put here for the pursuit of knowledge.
Some say knowledge is power.
Others say power corrupts.
I say if there's a Hell below were all gonna go.  
Peace.

[anubiscycle]

I had only one question for my teacher during Biology III AP.

Where did that come from?

I never got an answer and was given an F for answering questions other than the taught EVOLUTION.

I say they don't know and that angers them.

No one has answered my question:
HOW CAN YOU HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER?

Also feel free to explain stupid people continuing to populate our planet.

So much for NATURAL SELECTION.

[martini]

Quoting from the bible to prove that God exists sort of misses the point. If I am sure of anything its that any Gods that we know on this planet are the creation of men. A god may well exist but his, her, its existence can not be established by reading a book that is premised on the idea that god exists. I'll say it again, there is no proof there is only faith. And is it better to have a world where people have faith in a higher power than a world where they don't? Well thats a whole other can of worms.

[martini]

The reason stupid people populate the planet is because man kind as a species has evolved to a point where we have societies which allow this to happen but who knows maybe the stupid people will make the planet unihabitable for human beings and we will all die out and inscects will take over. This too will be part of an evolutionary process.

[firecracker]

Fibonacci series


Random   Accident    You Decide 

[Ebrandon]

.it doesnt say that my local city hall cant have a christmas scene out front,if religion offends you tough,this country was founded on christianity and its done us well,until the damn liberals got it outlawed back in the 60`s.you folks ask  yourself this,why do you think kids act the way they do nowadays,its because their parents grew up without religion in school.ok,ill shut up now.

I think that you are way off here. For a couple of reasons. One I am an upstanding young citizen and my parents chose to raise me without religion. They taught me morals, they taught me humility, they taught me kindness, but in no way shape or form are we religious. They also told me that if I ever felt like I wanted to go to church, just tell them and they would take me. I actually spent a few years persuing religion and in the end found that I was taught nothing better than my parents had already done. Morality and conscious are not dependent upon religion, they are dependent upon good people.

Two, at a certain point you do have to remove religion from public places. Do I think public schools shouldn't be allowed to do Christmas pageants? Not necessarily, but I think that participation should be optional and if there were a group of students whom wanted to do a Hanukkah pageant then the school would have to also dedicated the same space an money. We could get into the argument of the majority here, but that program is so flawed, I don't see the point.

Everybody talks about how bad things are getting now-a-days, and how people are so much worse than before. What humors me is that people don't take into account the stagering growth in human population. It took thousands of years for the human population to get up to a billion people, but in the last hundred years it has reached 4 billion, 5 billion, 6 billion. With exponetial growth you have to expect that what was once uncommon and on the finge will become common and right smack in the middle.

[andy750]

Creation with Evolution......


The Big Bang theory....

Take one primeval atom....(the creative part) bang....light....darkness.....universe starts expanding.....continues to do so to this day...scientific observation/measurement to <1 sec before the Big Bang has been made possible....more questions.....regardless evolution continues...

More info:

The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions.

In 1927, the Belgian priest Georges Lemaître was the first to propose that the universe began with the explosion of a primeval atom. His proposal came after observing the red shift in distant nebulas by astronomers to a model of the universe based on relativity. Years later, Edwin Hubble found experimental evidence to help justify Lemaître's theory. He found that distant galaxies in every direction are going away from us with speeds proportional to their distance.

The big bang was initially suggested because it explains why distant galaxies are traveling away from us at great speeds. The theory also predicts the existence of cosmic background radiation (the glow left over from the explosion itself). The Big Bang Theory received its strongest confirmation when this radiation was discovered in 1964 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, who later won the Nobel Prize for this discovery.

One of those science fools with a degree  ,
Andy

Edit: Competeting theory according to Faith  - Intelligent Design - everything on Earth is created by a higher being that we just cant understand. No proof but take it on Faith that its really there. Origin of humans - ~150,000 years. Origin of Universe - Billions of years. What happened in between? See Bobs post on "Evolution".....

[anubiscycle]

I did not read a whole lot from above ( but will in a bit- this may make this post change a bit). But I feel I must say, that if there was (and there seems to be proof) a big bang as we call it. Why couldn't the "Big Bang" Not be a tool of "Intelligent Design"?

I mean really.... You can not have one with out the other as far as I can see. Keep in mind that while was in seminary I am a lother of churches and their teaching as the beat all end all.

Andy no digs: I will make a educated and reasonable response-let me soak it all in. This is a REAL topic as far as I am concerned. My view is not the only one. Lucky me, according to the Buddhists you would have to kill me 

We did not get here by luck alone. Otherwise there would be NO stupid people.

There was something I saw a few years ago that had something to do with Steven Hawking that showed that stars were mapped out in the shape of a humanoid figure. Any help on this would be nice.

Would like to keep this thread going. Ebrandon, you have posted a thread that will go down in SOHC history as "most intelligent thread started" 

I thank everyone for quoting your sources, I know I am bad at this at times, but thanks.

[Bob Wessner]

Having been well anchored in science all my life, I've read much of the Big Bang. It all made sense, but I have to admit asking myself, so what caused the bang? Just my inquiring mind.

[andy750]

"Lucky me, according to the Buddhists you would have to kill me  Grin"

Only in your dreams Tom 

In any case you can argue that it could be Intelligent Design that created the Big Bang but since you have no evidence to support that hypothesis its a bit like me saying "The Smurfs made the Big Bang"  -there is no way to prove either is true or not. You need facts to support a point of view not just an opinion on what you feel is right. Start with the simplest hypothesis based on the facts.....there is NO need to invoke a Higher Being into the theory....its an add-on not supported by the facts.

cheers
Andy

 Edit: good question Bob and as I said questions remain and are under investigation.......science never ends...there are always more questions to answer.....

[martini]

Having been well anchored in science all my life, I've read much of the Big Bang. It all made sense, but I have to admit asking myself, so what caused the bang? Just my inquiring mind.

Well, thats the problem isn't it? Where did that first atom come from? Where did God come from? No answers just questions. Anyone who claims to have answers is fooling themselves.

[anubiscycle]

No one has proof either way, NONE.

[bill440cars]

                                                              FAITH

[mrbreeze]

I'd be happy to know who builds the best mouse trap...fly repellant...stuff like that!!!! Oh well...back to polishing my cases.

[ofreen]

No one has proof either way, NONE.

We used to get stoned and have these conversations when I was in high school and college.  They got just about as far as this one is.  There is a problem with two-valued words like "either."  It gives the idea there are only two possibilities.  It seems likely to me the answer is something different than the two presented, something not conceived by anybody yet.  We are like people in a closed room, with no windows and only two doors (both one-way), knowing nothing except what we have experienced in that room and imagining what is outside.  And making up our minds and arguing about it, sometimes even to the extent of going to war.  It does pass the time, though.

[mrbreeze]

Thats a good way of looking at it Ofreen......just what is on the other side of that gosh darned door?

[aptech77]

What this debate alway comes down to is this: If God did not create the universe who did? No one, it has always existed. Well then, so has God. And around and around we go.

DAMN IT....... you stole my LINE!!!! 

[Ebrandon]

Whenever I get so bold as to think I might have a grip on how things work, I just think about infinity and try to get my mind around that. And I see our whole world, universe, fights, advances and one infinitesimal poof! And then there is all the rest of time left. Then I get a headache and have a beer.

[anubiscycle]

this getting to be like a showing of SAW

[scunny]

a true adventurer would tie a rope round his waist, attach the other end to a heavy object and just walk out that door, have a look around then using his trusty rope for guidance return thru that door. It has got a handle on both sides hasn't it ?

[ofreen]

a true adventurer would tie a rope round his waist, attach the other end to a heavy object and just walk out that door, have a look around then using his trusty rope for guidance return thru that door. It has got a handle on both sides hasn't it ?

Well, Houdini thought he might work something out, but it didn't seem to work, tho.

[scunny]

Houdini forgot to take a paper bag filled with air on his "journey"

[ic455]

This is getting wayyyy too complicated