Topic: Transmission/clutch goes click-click-click

[minimo]

The following image is from my '77 550F:

When I rotate the primary shaft counterclockwise (left) somewhere in the crankcase it goes "click click click..."
It is too tight to turn clockwise (right). Is this normal?

I thought I was having issues with my clutch at first because I noticed that when I squeezed the clutch (of course when everything was assembled and the bike was running idle), I would put it into 1st and while keeping the clutch held, I couldn't maneuver the bike in reverse. It was as though the brake was on but it wasn't. The bike could move forward but not reverse.

Is there something simple that I'm missing here, like anything to adjust on the shift gear components behind the clutch assembly? Or, does this sound like a transmission problem and means that I'll need to crack open the lower case again and inspect?
Shoot myself now?

[bwaller]

Probably something with the kickstart shaft. Pull the pan and take a peek from underneath.

[minimo]

That's interesting, bwaller. Thanks for chiming in.

When in neutral, with clutch and cover off, I slowly step on the kickstart and the primary shaft moves counterclockwise (left) and respectively back to the same position it began in when released. This is normal, yes?

I also noticed when I put it into 1st and pushed on the kickstart, the bike move forward. Again, normal, right?

Notice a thing off in the pics under the bottom cover (sorry, my tight jeans and old bones limit my reach and flexibility under there):

[minimo]

Read about how one user was having issues not being able to turn the motor in reverse http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,142568.0/all.html

The user then uncovered the following:

I think its installed incorrectly.  In its idle state the tab on the ratchet is pointing up, the diagram in the manual has it pointing towards the rear.  Additionally, at the end of the kickstarter's rotation this tab will contact one of the tabs on the ratchet guide plate (and yes, I learned this the hardway... hopefully that tab doesnt mind getting bent back into position a bit...)

And further...

The issue was with the kickstarter.  I had the kicker starter ratchet 180d off, as a result the ratchet was always engaged.

A note to anyone with this problem, I removed the clutch cover so I could remove the kickstarter main spring.  I am almost positive that you DONT need to remove either of those to fix this particular issue.

Hmm. Can anyone tell if I've got the aforementioned tab and ratchet guide plate in or out of order? Perhaps the best way to see for sure it to take it apart?
I've forgotten how I did it but I'm hoping I don't have to pull apart the entire case again to get to the kickstart mech.

[Bootsey]

By the looks, I think you may have the kickstart assembled incorrectly - the boss/lip needs to be facing downwards, and there needs to be a gap between the gears at stand still.
I'm not 100% sure as I didn't pull mine apart, but I think you might be able to remove the circlip on the end of the shaft and then reassemble correctly, without having to split the cases.

[Tews19]

Bootsey is correct. Or your spring broke and now the teeth are engaged. You can fix it with the engine in the frame. Takes about an hour. I did it last year on a 550 I picked up.

[minimo]

Well, I'll be... Thanks, Bootsey and Tews19 for checking into this. Big sigh of relief that I should be able to fix this without splitting the case.
I will have time later this week to get my eyes and hands in there again. Any recommends or creative means on how I can lift the bike up to better expose and work under the engine? I'm only equipped with a standard motorcycle lift and some planks of wood. Also eliminated the use of my center stand and only have the side kickstand.

I also wonder if having my kickstart installed wrong has resulted in some of my strange clutch issues... Hmmm.

Thanks again, y'all.

[HondaMan]

Height is always a problem when I work on 750 oil pumps, too!
 

Here's what I do: I have a [large] collection of 12" square cement bricks. I lean the bike over to slip one under a centerstand leg, then the other side, then the front wheel, until I get 2 under each one of these points. This raises the whole bike about 4", which is enough to fit me and my wrenches up under there. I have raised a 750 as much as a foot by doing this!

A word of caution: don't try it with normal bricks. They don't have enough footprint, and they tend to fall over. The wide 12" ones work best, for me.

[goldarrow]

Hang it in your garage or remove the tank and totally lay the bike over on one side

[minimo]

Great suggestions. Thanks, HondaMan and goldarrow.
Only, I would not trust hanging the bike from my rafters. Oh no. I'll limit the damage already made to my apartment floors.

I can't wait to get into pulling out the kickstart mech!
Keep y'all posted! Thanks!


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[minimo]

This may do for now...

[minimo]

And the RATCHET GUIDE PLATE doesn't look bent out of shape here, does it?


Btw, Bootsey, the pic you attached of the kickstart assembly, is that looking down at it as though the top half of the case was off? Are we looking at the inside of the bottom cover? My shots were from the bottom looking up.
From your angle it's difficult to see how and if any part of the shorter bent arm mates with the slot in the lower case. I had part of the short arm resting in that notch of the lower case. It is very difficult to put in words how this bent piece is oriented. Any pics would be a humongous help.

[minimo]

I removed my kickstart assembly simply by removing the two circlips located basically at opposite ends of the spindle.

Examining the parts and reassembling them outside of the case, I think I'm beginning to understand the mechanics of what the components do and I'm fairly confident that my ratchet guide plate is not bent beyond its limits. Or, is it?

I notice that the ratchet really only has two ways to be positioned on the spindle (there are flats machined to make them fit a certain way) and what makes the most sense, I think might be exemplified in the following photo:

Is the aim to get the cam on the ratchet to slide along the inside of the ratchet guide plate's shorter bent leg (lower example)? Does the longer leg wedge into the recessed tab machined into the lower case? When the kick is back to its starting point, what should the position of the cam be? In the guide plate, lifting the ratchet off of pinion, as in the lower photo? Or, at the start, should the cam be in another position?



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[minimo]

User, mtcr posted a related issue noting a bent part on the ratchet guide plate...

I found the problem and fixed it, and did not have to remove the engine to do so. Here is how:

1. Drained oil and removed oil pan
2. Removed header, muffler, kickstart lever and foot brake pedal
3. Removed clutch cover (nasty bolts taken care of with an impact wrench set to very low PSI)
4. Removed the larger cir clip (#43) and retaining spring (#24) on the exterior of the motor casing for the kick starter
5. Removed the cir clip inside the engine (#42)on the kickstart shaft - requires 90 degree cir clip pliers
6. Kickstart shaft pulls right out (make sure all parts are there)


Problem: Part #23 - the ratchet guide - was bent and was not completely disengaging the ratchet from the pinion. Additionally, the mating surfaces were rough and marred. I bent the retaining portion back to where it should be, and then polished the mating surfaces for smoother action.

Reinstallation:

As there are springs involved, it is difficult to perform the installation with the engine in the frame. However, there are two very helpful hints that I figured out while attempting it, and the only special tools required are a large and small vice-grip.

#1- when installing the kickstart shaft from the outside of the engine casing, there is nothing that keeps it in place. Therefore, attaching a vice-grip to it and wedging it to the frame works just fine. This could also be done with tape I suppose.
#2 - after all parts go on (except the main return spring), it is impossible to get everything to stay in place to get the cir clip back on inside the engine. To solve this, simply install everything except the last washer and cir clip (#29 and 42), then affix a small vice grip on the shaft in-between the gap on the retainer bracket (#23). This holds everything in place and allows you to install the smaller cir clip easily (if laying under a bike getting oil drips on your face is easy).

Long story short, it was a difficult fix to try and figure out for the first time. However, it would easy if I had to do it again. I don't know if anyone else has had a problem like this, but if they do, it can be fixed.

Remember to get new oil pan and clutch cover gaskets - they are not reusable and you're dead in the water if you forget to order them (heh).

-Mike

I'll try bending the ratchet guide back to a more 90° angle, polish the surfaces for smoother action, as suggested, and then install the parts. Stay tuned...

[minimo]

I installed the kickstart using the locking plier trick (good grief, don't know how to install without it - great trick) and I know the sequence is correct according to the manual but it's just the location of the cam that I'm still unsure about.

Here's what the kickstart looks like from oil pan view. The kickstand is up and the ratchet is disengaged (not touching) from the pinion:

Is this correct?

I step it into 1st and the main shaft feels like it's in gear - no clicks. I step it into neutral and the main shaft spins freely which seems like standard operation to me. - no clicks here either. All seemingly normal?

.

[minimo]

After installing the kickstart assembly, I noticed that the pinion didn't quite sit flush or at least closer to the inner wall (at the point of spindle entry) of the lower case. I imagine there should be some kind of spacer or collet that would go there but no such thing in the parts guides. Or, it's possible that the shaft on the spindle has a step on it to prevent the pinion from moving beyond that point. I don't recall.

Paulages observed a similar issue about the space on the kickstart. I wonder if this is normal?
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=53154.0