Author Topic: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build  (Read 40735 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« on: November 01, 2015, 08:55:36 PM »
I'm making a classic 'Gentleman's Express' 550-to-590cc conversion out of a (young, but rusty) CB500 engine for one of our members who is building a fancy cafe'.

The beginning: the engine has about 2500 original miles on it, followed by 40 years of sitting and rust. The engine was severely damaged in the shipping trip to me, so I'm replacing the crankcases and some other internal parts (among other things) to resolve the damage (thanks to Bill Benton for finding some cases and an oil funnel!). Desert Dan contributed a new Tach Drive Housing for it, too: what a great community!

So, here's the skinny on the parts being used:
Bill obtained some 550 cylinders for it (the 500 sleeves are a bit too thin for this much bore, IMHO), which are going to the shop tomorrow for boring. The pistons are a matched set of 4 stock-size CB750K2 pistons that had 8000 miles on them when the owner had me make it into an 836 engine. These must be modified: I'll post pix of the changes when I get that far.

The [initial] cam will be from a CB650-4. The ignition will likely be one of my Transistor Ignition units, points-driven. I'll be modifying the spark advancer curve a little bit, as the final compression ratio will be in the 10s somewhere. It will need a slightly slower advance curve to avoid spark knock.

Initial pix below: it was tricky to take apart, as the engine would not turn over but 1/2 turn. The bores were too rusty on #1 and #4 to let the pistons move up their bores.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,399
  • Central Texas
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2015, 09:09:29 PM »
Subscribed. Gentlemans Express = a cafe...who knew?!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline FunJimmy

  • Who you calling
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,802
  • Vancouver
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2015, 09:24:35 PM »
Following along as well. Shame the engine was in that condition considering the low mileage.
You never see a motorcycle parked outside of a psychiatrist's office!

CB550 Cafe Interceptor a Gentlemans Roadster
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=27159.0

Offline jaguar

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,776
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2015, 06:50:58 AM »
I too will be along for the ride.

Offline CBGhia

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 10:18:14 AM »
Subscribed  ;D  Might be helping a friend with the exact same build very soon.
CB550 Cafe, GL1000, Buell Ulysses
if you dont trial spin the camshaft in the head and cover you are a novice,with no natural mechanical appitude,destined for destruction.
"The cleaner the dipstick, the closer to God." -Rev. Horton Heat
“Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.”  - Hunter S. Thompson

Offline flatlander

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,605
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 10:58:49 AM »
sounds good. i'll be peering over your shoulder.

Offline strynboen

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,883
    • http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=etvjkd6e6m3gpqkgbpevg36cn2&/topic,60973.0.html
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 11:07:47 AM »
a light and easy driven 550. with 750 power..then put a 400 four tank on..and you have the best from all sohc bikes..
to build a Honda dream bike.
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline 01Thomas

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 11:34:59 AM »
Subscribed
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 11:55:04 AM »
 How are you modifying the spark advancer curve?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline MCRider

  • Such is the life of a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,376
  • Today's Lesson: One good turn deserves another.
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2015, 12:01:06 PM »
me too
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Tintop

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,965
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 01:03:19 PM »
I'll take a chair as well.  It's something I've been thinking about doing to my 550.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline scunny

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,618
  • don't call me expert
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2015, 03:00:01 PM »
I'm in.
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline Tews19

  • I am no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,465
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2015, 03:22:49 PM »
WOW I CAME BACL AT THE RIGHT TIME!!!!!
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2015, 03:47:26 PM »
How are you modifying the spark advancer curve?

In the beginning (...sometime AFTER God created the Heavens and Earth...) the 500/550 came with too-soft spark advancer springs. After a very few miles, this problem got worse from heat-annealing (which we see on all of these bikes) and the advance goes full by about 1500-1800 RPM. This is far too soon for the long intake tracts on these bikes: it causes spitback into the intake tract and reduces the low-to-midrange power by pushing the fuel charge back up to the carbs. This has always made them listless at engine speeds below 3500 RPM.

It takes a little tinkering to get it just right, because there are 3 different spring sets and advancers on these Fours. I usually start by cutting off 1/2 turn of one of the springs and making the shortest-possible loop of the new end to make it stay on the post (or weight), then ride it. When it comes out just right, there is a smooth, even surge of power from idle through the 4000 RPM range that, if you are familiar with that bike, you will notice right away: it loses that "switch on/switch off" power feel (at 4000-ish RPM) of the Mid Four when you get it right, instead giving a throttle that feels more 'normal' to other bikes.

Generally, overall they also have too much advance. This can be tested first by using lesser octane. If it makes them feel stronger at roll-on hiway speeds (like 4500+ RPM in upper gears) then it has too much advance to be running premium fuels. I personally think this was the reason these bikes ended up with #7 heatrange sparkplugs instead of #8, when it was an even higher RPM engine than the 750: the excessive advance makes the engine run too cool at 4000-7000 RPM speeds, which saps power (but it does improve engine life if the fuel is also too rich, hence their tradeoff). The choice was either to change the Owner's Manuals to show Regular Gas (which made the Honda Warranty department nervous), or increase the head heat to improve high-end power and sparkplug cleanliness, which was also Kawasaki's approach at the time.

The volumetric efficiency of the head design of the 500/550 is a little bit low, so it doesn't mix as well as the 750 or 350F/400F heads. This lends itself well to nice improvements with minor changes, though: it was a difficult head passage to cast, given the production technology of 1970. Because of that, it more resembles the venerable CB100 engine than the higher-performing 90cc or CB/CL72/77 series engines where the 750 was born. The CB100 has long been an indestructible engine (much like the 500/550), but just a little low on low-end torque. With some relatively minor tweaks, the incoming charge can be made to tumble less and flow more evenly, taking full advantage of the early-opening cams of the CB500/550K engines (the F engines have later-opening cams). Using a CB650 cam in this situation will improve things even more, so long as you don't mind losing the OEM tach.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline mrfish2

  • I might be a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 679
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2015, 03:59:11 PM »
Subscribed just to see Hondaman type out his extensive knowledge haha  ;)
1976 CB550K            1979 XS1100
1980 CB650C - Sold

It's a little motor and likes having the tits revved off it.

Offline riverfever

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,796
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2015, 07:07:56 PM »
In for the long haul.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127186.0

"You wouldn't think that out here...a man could simply run clear...out of country but oh my...oh my...nothing but the light." -Ben Nichols

Offline Gman

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2015, 08:01:27 PM »
How are you modifying the spark advancer curve?

In the beginning (...sometime AFTER God created the Heavens and Earth...) the 500/550 came with too-soft spark advancer springs. After a very few miles, this problem got worse from heat-annealing (which we see on all of these bikes) and the advance goes full by about 1500-1800 RPM. This is far too soon for the long intake tracts on these bikes: it causes spitback into the intake tract and reduces the low-to-midrange power by pushing the fuel charge back up to the carbs. This has always made them listless at engine speeds below 3500 RPM.

It takes a little tinkering to get it just right, because there are 3 different spring sets and advancers on these Fours. I usually start by cutting off 1/2 turn of one of the springs and making the shortest-possible loop of the new end to make it stay on the post (or weight), then ride it. When it comes out just right, there is a smooth, even surge of power from idle through the 4000 RPM range that, if you are familiar with that bike, you will notice right away: it loses that "switch on/switch off" power feel (at 4000-ish RPM) of the Mid Four when you get it right, instead giving a throttle that feels more 'normal' to other bikes.

Generally, overall they also have too much advance. This can be tested first by using lesser octane. If it makes them feel stronger at roll-on hiway speeds (like 4500+ RPM in upper gears) then it has too much advance to be running premium fuels. I personally think this was the reason these bikes ended up with #7 heatrange sparkplugs instead of #8, when it was an even higher RPM engine than the 750: the excessive advance makes the engine run too cool at 4000-7000 RPM speeds, which saps power (but it does improve engine life if the fuel is also too rich, hence their tradeoff). The choice was either to change the Owner's Manuals to show Regular Gas (which made the Honda Warranty department nervous), or increase the head heat to improve high-end power and sparkplug cleanliness, which was also Kawasaki's approach at the time.

The volumetric efficiency of the head design of the 500/550 is a little bit low, so it doesn't mix as well as the 750 or 350F/400F heads. This lends itself well to nice improvements with minor changes, though: it was a difficult head passage to cast, given the production technology of 1970. Because of that, it more resembles the venerable CB100 engine than the higher-performing 90cc or CB/CL72/77 series engines where the 750 was born. The CB100 has long been an indestructible engine (much like the 500/550), but just a little low on low-end torque. With some relatively minor tweaks, the incoming charge can be made to tumble less and flow more evenly, taking full advantage of the early-opening cams of the CB500/550K engines (the F engines have later-opening cams). Using a CB650 cam in this situation will improve things even more, so long as you don't mind losing the OEM tach.

I was just about to say the same thing, but HM beat me to it.  Subscribed, as I may learn something.    ;D ;D

Peace,
G
'76 CB550K
Stock airbox, MotoGPWerks 4-1, HondaMan ignition, Lesters

Offline Trad

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2015, 08:34:46 PM »
popcorn please.
74 CB550 Build: NOS-GUTTED-OEMplus-HOLDTRUE
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,130575.0.html

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2015, 09:55:04 PM »
Got the Georgia-clay-coated cases back from the cleaners today, took the lower one to the machinist to fix the damaged oil filter face. It needs to be resurfaced maybe -0.5mm deep to fix it up. Then I took the studs out (pic below) to make room for the new HD studs from APE (Big Jay's department!) and so my machinist can also open up the cylinder's holes in the upper case: the 500 holes are about 1mm too small to fit the 550 sleeves, needs some elbow room!

Now I am being sentenced to another week in AR for work, so won't be making much progress next week. :(
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:13:44 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline GV1390

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 586
  • Express Gratitude.
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 04:56:03 AM »
This is the one going locally to me, correct? What kind of power should something like this see to the wheel, realistically that is?
93' GSX-R1100, 78' CB550, 71' CL350, 71’ CB500 & 02' ZRX1200R.

Offline Kemp

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 09:50:46 AM »
Subscribed. Already interesting!!

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 08:59:20 PM »
This is the one going locally to me, correct? What kind of power should something like this see to the wheel, realistically that is?

Yep, it's yours!
But, I don't know what the HP is on these. I've only dyno'd the 750 before, not any of the 500/550 bikes. I do know it is (was) known to be a 'killer' in the right hands, but it is said to take some practice to master it: IMHO this was (back then) because too many riders added a giant rear tire to it, which doesn't match well with the gearing in 1st.

In the end, your engine will come down to this: the compression will be in the 10s somewhere, the ports will breathe at least 10% better with the same cam, but yours will have the 650 cam on top of that. The combustion chamber will be somewhat modified to allow better mixing, too, but I don't have a 'performance number' to lay on that. Then add the valve deshrouding and polishing and the recurved spark advance (so it behaves), and it will be a whole different critter from your neighbor's 550.

I'd recommend staying with a 110/90 size rear tire for best hole-shot capability, letting it slip a bit on hard starts to support the tall 1st gear. I haven't yet reached the clutch part of this, but I will likely install a 750's clutch as the 500 was known to slip too much in this situation. The OEM 500 was a slipper clutch, made for smoothness and [the best ever] shifting operation, and they could be smoked on the track back when. So, this will need some extra support.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bootsey

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2015, 10:19:51 PM »
Looking forward to this one!

Offline FunJimmy

  • Who you calling
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,802
  • Vancouver
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2015, 11:33:12 PM »
I haven't yet reached the clutch part of this, but I will likely install a 750's clutch as the 500 was known to slip too much in this situation. The OEM 500 was a slipper clutch, made for smoothness and [the best ever] shifting operation, and they could be smoked on the track back when. So, this will need some extra support.

This sounds very interesting. I've never heard about using a 750 clutch in a 550 engine. That could solve a problem I'm having with the Interceptor. Could you explain? Thanks
You never see a motorcycle parked outside of a psychiatrist's office!

CB550 Cafe Interceptor a Gentlemans Roadster
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=27159.0

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,070
  • I refuse...
Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 04:38:05 AM »
Or, you could really step up the game and use the Davies 6-speed trans and Nova dry clutch and turn this thing loose! Since you're using a 500 lower end, its a perfect match.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis