Author Topic: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build  (Read 41154 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #150 on: January 13, 2016, 05:03:56 PM »
Looks great Mark! What kind of temperature difference do think you will you see with the non black head?

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Well, here's what I learned when I did something similar with my 750: in 1973 I painted my engine (fins and head) black. I bought the bike new in early 1972, spent the next winter tinkering with it (due to midwest winter weather and sheer boredom...). My [first] wire used to ride with me a lot in those days, and she usually wore some thin bluejeans when we did. The oil cap on the oil tank just barely touched the inside of her right thigh, and we used to 'know' when it was time for an oil change (usually about 900-1100 miles) because the cap would start becoming warm through her jeans. So, she was may 'maintenance assistant' in those days...the following Spring when I put the painted engine back in the bike, we rode to Missouri to visit my brother (about 400 miles one way) one weekend. On the way down, she said the cap felt 'kind of hot', but not terrible. But, on the way home (600 miles on the oil change) in similar weather, it became so hot that it burned her thigh, inside the jeans. She complained several times: when we got home, she had a dark brown smile burned into her thigh, which became a permanent scar. (She never let me forget it: she was a long-haired looker of a biker chic, and loved to show off in her bikini: this "made a mark" she hated!). She then told me she would not ride with me until I fixed this problem, so I [re]pulled the engine and removed the black paint, making it aluminum again. Ever after that, it went back to the original routine, where it was warm while the oil was 'good' and hot noticeably hotter when it passed the 1000-1100 mile mark, very consistent. It never again got so hot as to burn her, though, even when I installed the Vetter Lowers on the fairing.

So, just from this experience alone, I can say it made around 20-30 degrees difference in engine temps, from enough to feel warm to the touch to scarring someone's thigh thru [light] denim!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #151 on: January 13, 2016, 05:20:50 PM »
I've heard of "butt dyno's" before but "thigh thermometer" is a first!  Good story HM.
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Offline redwillis1978

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #152 on: January 13, 2016, 07:32:10 PM »

I've heard of "butt dyno's" before but "thigh thermometer" is a first!  Good story HM.

Almost as good as an inner thigh ruler tattoo

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #153 on: January 14, 2016, 08:13:36 PM »
This seems at odds with what other manufacturers have experienced. Many air-cooled engines were indeed painted, black even, and no appreciable temperature issues surfaced. Currently, lots of folks paint or powder cost their engines with no adverse effect.mwhat do you suppose was so different them as to now?

Well, I look at it this way (when not staring at 'thigh rulers?'): when I rebuilt my own 750 this last time, I removed ALL paint from the cylinders and head, and polished just the top fin on the head, to see what the effect will be (since I often run Lowers  with my Vetter on long trips through the mountains, to stay warm!). Now, even when running with the 80-90 MPH morning traffic to work here, when I get to work (26 miles one way) the oil cap is just warm to the touch. It NEVER gets hot, even when sitting in traffic for long periods after the 'sprint' of 18 miles on the freeway. It is noticeably cooler at the cap now, and I must say the engine REALLY likes it, as it develops seemingly endless power: it always has been that when cold(er) weather came along, it ran stronger at hiway speeds. Now, I notice no difference, cold or hot days, which suggests it may be TOO cool overall. But, it will take at least 10,000 miles to find that out, so it will be a while? If it does not get hot enough, the outer 2 cylinders will wear the oval shape again, even though the bores are now cured. It did not show this wear last time, after 90k miles on 0.25mm overbore, because of this cure, but running too cold will cause it to show up again.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #154 on: January 14, 2016, 09:46:58 PM »
Mark, don't start another oil thread!!

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2016, 01:32:24 AM »
Mark, interesting findings...

It may be related to the solids in the black paint versus the metal that is often in a silver paint and it take high solids in black to coat and cover with some objects as sharp edges tend to have the paint pull away from the edge. A silver paint often has metallic fine powder in the silver bonded in a clear binder. Harder to tell you have thin paint at the edges on silver when painting metal that starts off as a silver cast to begin with.
When silver covers well and lays down consistently after the first primer mist coat or two then it coats fairly quickly has been my experience with silver.
Black you have to lay down more coats to get the deep black that lasts.

The water cooled engines are a different animal in their design as the water jacket in the cylinder conducts the heat and the radiant air cooling isn't as much of an issue.

But, that said I've seen this discussion on auto motors as well.
POR engine paint is a very high solid paint (unless they changed it) and it is a paint that goes on thick...not what I would use for an air cooled motor.

David
What did VW & Porsche do on their air cooled motors?
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Offline CBGhia

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2016, 05:47:55 AM »
I can tell you from personal experience that VW put nothing on the magnesium blocks that came in the old aircooled VWs.  Most people I know may paint the upper rear corner area (the only part that shows when the tins are in place) but leave the rest unpainted.  That's what I did in my Ghia. 
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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2016, 04:14:13 AM »
A question I have which is a little off topic. The Henry Abe 605 kit has crappy rings from everything I've read. The bottom ring being a single piece ring. HondaMan, you mentioned earlier that the 3 piece rings cause more wear than the single piece ring (bottom oil control ring, right?) and the initial wear caused by the 3 piece rings contributes to the motor needing a rebuild quicker as a result.

What makes the HA kits bad? Is it just the rings? I've heard of folks modifying the ring grooves to fit a set of Honda rings. The GE 750 pistons would be a better choice from what I understand. But, there's a bunch of work to do that conversion as Mark is incurring.
So, other than crappy rings and a need to replace them, what should you do on the HA 605 kit to make it last longer?
If you are replacing rings, then where do you get another set?   Is it time to pony up for someone to cut the ring grooves to fit a set of 59mm rings from Honda? Would that be std size 750 rings?

Thanks!
David
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #158 on: January 17, 2016, 06:19:50 AM »
 The old single oil control rings have a lot more tension than a 3 piece ring....this is obvious when you try to install them in a cylinder (or on the piston for that matter). 3 piece rings are specifically called "low tension" and consequently create less friction. They go into the bore like butter.
 Rings have become thinner to and wall finishes smoother to reduce friction. You have to ask yourself if thick, heavily tensioned oil ring was better why have they disappeared in ring packs over the last 30 years? I am not saying a single oil ring doesn't work but the way it controls oil is a bit outdated. ;D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 12:29:18 PM by MRieck »
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #159 on: January 17, 2016, 06:31:49 AM »
Looks great Mark! What kind of temperature difference do think you will you see with the non black head?

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  But, on the way home (600 miles on the oil change) in similar weather, it became so hot that it burned her thigh, inside the jeans. She complained several times: when we got home, she had a dark brown smile burned into her thigh, which became a permanent scar.

Mark...this begs the question. Why didn't you wrap a cloth/t shirt  around the cap to prevent this?? ??? ;D
 Also....Roadracing World did an excellent article on engine finishes and their ability to shed heat. The article was written about 25 years ago (when the publication was pretty new) and it used measurable methods. If I remember correctly they used bead blasted, coarse sand blasted (which increased surface area), black and silver painted surfaces. If I remember correctly the black surface was the most effective. I believe they were using the Kalguard Gun Kote....the finish of choice by Yoshimura and other teams.
 I have tried to find the article as it was very good.....no luck so far.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 12:30:48 PM by MRieck »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #160 on: January 17, 2016, 11:25:02 PM »
Looks great Mark! What kind of temperature difference do think you will you see with the non black head?

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  But, on the way home (600 miles on the oil change) in similar weather, it became so hot that it burned her thigh, inside the jeans. She complained several times: when we got home, she had a dark brown smile burned into her thigh, which became a permanent scar.

Mark...this begs the question. Why didn't you wrap a cloth/t shirt  around the cap to prevent this?? ??? ;D
 Also....Roadracing World did an excellent article on engine finishes and their ability to shed heat. The article was written about 25 years ago (when the publication was pretty new) and it used measurable methods. If I remember correctly they used bead blasted, coarse sand blasted (which increased surface area), black and silver painted surfaces. If I remember correctly the black surface was the most effective. I believe they were using the Kalguard Gun Kote....the finish of choice by Yoshimura and other teams.
 I have tried to find the article as it was very good.....no luck so far.

I'd sure like to see the article: it at least sounds like it got past the "opinion" versions I see in most articles?

The oil cap: my ex used to wear her jeans so tight that I think her legs were numb in the pants(!). Her feet often went to sleep when they were folded back on the passenger pegs, so I had to remove my Vetter lowers when she rode along, and install a hiway bar for my legs so she could put her feet on my pegs. Then I had to invent an intercom between us so I could ask her to hit the rear brake from time to time....

The oil ring question: the 1-piece oil rings are expensive to make, for sure. This is the biggest reason the 3-piece type replaced them, according to a retired engineer I met from Perfect Circle in the late 1980s (they used to be REAL big in car engine rings, I haven't rebilt a car engine in a decade, though...). The 3-piece rings have low tension that lets them wear longer IF the bore is properly honed: the machine shop you use must know that, or the difference, which good shops are careful about. I always bring my rings to my guys, as they have 8 different honing techniques and a dozen grits of stones: some of the kits we get today have chrome top rings, some are cast iron, moly, or, in some of my engines, 1-piece oil rings. The 1 piece ring takes a long time to settle in and above 7000 RPM may have trouble routing the oil from the cylinder walls into the oil holes in the ring land (so it can escape from the bore back onto the piston crown area), unless it is CLEAN. This begs the question, of course, of maintenance: if you change your oil like a good boy should, it isn't any grief. If not, the ring can let oil start working past it at high RPM, causing troubles by upsetting the 2nd ring. On the track, this is a killer.

But, on the street, 1-piece has an advantage. The advantage comes in the form of the stiffness of the 1-piece ring: it traps more of the oil under it, wetting the piston skirt slightly better, so improving the heat transfer from the piston to the cylinder. The oil that makes it to the holes in the ring lands then is under quite a bit more pressure, so it keeps those holes flushed out better: I have never seen a clogged oil return hole in a 1-piece oil ring's piston land, but see it often in the 3-piece ring versions. The holes on the latter are marginally closed off by oil debris and need cleaning if being re-used. I have also noticed that the 1-piece oil rings can still rotate on the pistons, but the 3-piece rings NEVER do upon teardown. Thus, I doubt the 3-piece rings rotate, in operation.

The 3-piece rings appear to increase the upper temps of the pistons a little bit, likely due to the lesser oil amounts on the piston skirts. I believe Honda made use of this in the post-K2 engine with the 3-piece rings as part of their 'war' on the "plug fouling problem" in this particular engine (the K0-K1 and early K2 engines (like mine) were famous for sub-1000 mile plug life). In terms of tuning, the K2 with 3-piece rings (post-3/72 production) and the K3 cam, carbs, jetting and spark advancers are all identical, but the K3 did not foul plugs like the K2 always did. Upon teardowns, the K0-K2 (early) has a thickly-coated piston crown (carbon) while the K3 engines show a thinner, light-grey center crust, sometimes even a bare spot in the center. This appears to be from a little more heat, burning off the carbon. The K4-5-6 engines show this in spades.

Another thing I've noticed in engines with the 3-piece rings: by about 20k miles or so, their wristpins are showing measurable wear while the K0-K2 engines with 1-piece oil rings have not only perfect wristpins, but seldom any small-end rod wear. (This doesn't count engines that sat for years, accumulating wetness damage). For years I thought this meant the 1-piece rings were putting MORE oil under the crown to wet those parts, until I went "DUH" one day and realized - the later engine are simply running hotter at the upper reaches of the pistons, hence the extra wear on the pins, too. Sometimes I just feel stupid...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2016, 06:23:56 PM »
This thread isn't 'dead' yet, honest: the pistons are languishing at the machine shop, awaiting their turn in the lathe to get the crowns trimmed...  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #162 on: January 24, 2016, 06:06:15 AM »
This thread isn't 'dead' yet, honest: the pistons are languishing at the machine shop, awaiting their turn in the lathe to get the crowns trimmed...  :)

Mark, what kind of jewels are you encrusting those crowns with???   ;) ;D :o :)
David- back in the desert SW!

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #163 on: January 24, 2016, 06:15:17 AM »
By the way...given the eccentric wear in the early CB550 valve covers/tappet covers...
How expensive would it be to align bore the holes to an oversized diameter and put a high temperature and oil resistant material like Delrin or simlar?

I realize it wouldn't be cheap...but once it is indexed properly a CNC mill could do the work couldn't it. Then as necessary you put grooves in the delrin where needed for the oil to transfer thought to the shaft.
If it located properly it seems lto me that it could help? or would the loads on Delrin exceed its strength...
I am not sure if Delrin is oil resistant but I didn't look it up...I know Delrin being slippery would hep not wear the shafts. Or would this be something best done on a lathe with a carrier for the rocker shaft to be bored precisely. Presuming the lathe or mill can bore a hole long enough...is it possible?

Thanks!

David
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #164 on: January 24, 2016, 09:33:38 AM »
By the way...given the eccentric wear in the early CB550 valve covers/tappet covers...
How expensive would it be to align bore the holes to an oversized diameter and put a high temperature and oil resistant material like Delrin or simlar?

Late model rocker covers have anti-rotation pins to prevent shaft bore wear.
It would be a lot cheaper and easier to just locate a late model valve cover than to re-engineer the flawed units.
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #165 on: January 24, 2016, 10:43:41 AM »
just bore it aut to 14  or 16mm..and press some alu bushes in and tig them to stay.....put a 12 mm shaft inn to senter them before veld them solid inn..then bore some bolts in to Lock for rotation of the shaft...and it vill hold for years..

yoy vill need to bore through the cam tunnel..and make a long drilling/cutting shaft..vith a side cutting heighspeed steel cuting iron...and bore the vhole vay through the head..to stabil and senter the cutting Tool...
i have soon time to make a try on my stranko toolmachine...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 10:50:28 AM by strynboen »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #166 on: January 24, 2016, 06:59:44 PM »
just bore it aut to 14  or 16mm..and press some alu bushes in and tig them to stay.....put a 12 mm shaft inn to senter them before veld them solid inn..then bore some bolts in to Lock for rotation of the shaft...and it vill hold for years..

yoy vill need to bore through the cam tunnel..and make a long drilling/cutting shaft..vith a side cutting heighspeed steel cuting iron...and bore the vhole vay through the head..to stabil and senter the cutting Tool...
i have soon time to make a try on my stranko toolmachine...

You lucky devil! Boy, would I like to have a machine like that!
I was going to recommend the bushing idea, too, except I'd likely use bronze, like SAE660. It will wear forever and will increase the strength in the area at the same time, good for those high-lift cams.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #167 on: January 24, 2016, 07:00:37 PM »
This thread isn't 'dead' yet, honest: the pistons are languishing at the machine shop, awaiting their turn in the lathe to get the crowns trimmed...  :)

Mark, what kind of jewels are you encrusting those crowns with???   ;) ;D :o :)

Real thin, flat ones?
:D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline Trad

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #168 on: January 24, 2016, 07:04:01 PM »
Typically how busy are machine shops in Colorado Mark? It seems here in Edmonton, anywhere I go I usually get parts back within a weeks turn around. I've had such bad experience with multiple machine shops here though. Unless you know the guys personally I feel it's really hard to trust the workmanship. Very hit and miss. 

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2016, 11:01:53 AM »
Typically how busy are machine shops in Colorado Mark? It seems here in Edmonton, anywhere I go I usually get parts back within a weeks turn around. I've had such bad experience with multiple machine shops here though. Unless you know the guys personally I feel it's really hard to trust the workmanship. Very hit and miss. 



Around here, I can get work that I DON'T want done in about a week. But, the guys I "broke in" several years ago can vary from 2 weeks to 6 weeks, depending on what time of year (racing seasons) it is here. I tried so many [bad] shops that I finally bought my own lathe when trying to rebuild swingarms: it took me 3 "lost" sets of cylinders to get them to finally bore them MY way, and 4 heads that I had to re-rebuild when they wouldn't do the valve guides MY way, but they finally do it right, now. It was expensive and painful!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #170 on: January 26, 2016, 07:41:04 AM »
Typically how busy are machine shops in Colorado Mark? It seems here in Edmonton, anywhere I go I usually get parts back within a weeks turn around. I've had such bad experience with multiple machine shops here though. Unless you know the guys personally I feel it's really hard to trust the workmanship. Very hit and miss. 



Around here, I can get work that I DON'T want done in about a week. But, the guys I "broke in" several years ago can vary from 2 weeks to 6 weeks, depending on what time of year (racing seasons) it is here. I tried so many [bad] shops that I finally bought my own lathe when trying to rebuild swingarms: it took me 3 "lost" sets of cylinders to get them to finally bore them MY way, and 4 heads that I had to re-rebuild when they wouldn't do the valve guides MY way, but they finally do it right, now. It was expensive and painful!

I agree mark,it isn't easy to find a machine shop who does careful,quality work on Japanese motorcycle parts to 'spec'.
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Offline GV1390

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #171 on: March 08, 2016, 04:15:30 AM »
Bump.

Any updates?
93' GSX-R1100, 78' CB550, 71' CL350, 71’ CB500 & 02' ZRX1200R.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #172 on: March 08, 2016, 11:35:09 AM »
Bump.

Any updates?

I'm working on some changes now. The 750K2 pistons proved to be real problematic, and after almost 50 hours and over $100 in hand work, machine-shop work, cutting. balancing (to match each other), etc., etc., they still were such a tight fit that they hit the intake valves. During the attempt to try to bevel-cut back the crown another 5mm to clear the valves, one of the pistons jumped out of the clamp and ruined the crown. So, to keep my temper in check, I just walked away for a few days to cool off... :(

Besides, I just had to re-tear down a 750 to replace the cam chain tensioner that I just built into it...but that's another topic, not for this post...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #173 on: March 08, 2016, 02:11:45 PM »
Disturber de merde!!!

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #174 on: March 08, 2016, 03:40:01 PM »
Disturber de merde!!!

S#*t Disturber?! One of my favorite expressions.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold