Author Topic: Samauto II RC1080cc, RC crank and Golden rods, 327 cam etc, CB750 Automatic  (Read 52629 times)

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Offline gschuld

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Let's see, first event in 11 days, yet new rules being discussed only last week?  I'd be a tad annoyed if I showed up with a bike that followed the rules up until a few days before the event.  I assume that couldn't be the case....

George
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 12:03:23 PM by gschuld »

Offline kmb69

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Yep, it happened, Billy has the details.

Offline gschuld

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Something about the Samauto suddenly not being allowed to play a few years back.  Sounds familiar... :(

George

Offline bwaller

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Oh that's #$%*e, WTH?

Offline dragracer

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I saw something that said it has to be hand operated.
Sam. ;)

You sure they didn't mean the rider, they've seen you blokes at the track before...  ;D:P

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam.
Here's your answer when I questioned the same thing you mentioned. And its directly from Jon Weeks.
.....

Not sure that answers the question. I saw the same thing in the 2016 Rules. Something about has to be able to kill engine with clutch release.
Billy needs to check with ManCup as they were making more rule changes last week regarding the new 1st round stuff.



Keith, please understand that I was being sarcastic. When I posted about verification of rules, Weeks posted his response. All I wanted to do was to get someone to check the rules at that time. Instead the remarks basically said to leave it to the experts with auto's. I decided to do just what I was told since I don't have a dog in the fight. But let me say this, the hand slider issue heated up a lot when they we're banned in street ET. Don't sit back and think those guys won't be watching all bikes including the slower autos. Adding line locks and launch buttons will only exacerbate the issue.

But what the hell do I know. Plus all Bill has to do is call his contact in Florida and he'll fix it. Just be proactive guys. Don't assume!$$$$$$
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 09:16:30 AM by dragracer »

Offline gschuld

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And naturally, the guys who have the hidden illegal autoshift systems hooked up to their electric over air shifter will be the ones going ballistic.   :-X

George

Offline kmb69

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There may be a half a dozen or so Automatics being prepped for the ManCup.

Talked to Billy a little earlier and he is taking ACTION!  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  8)

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Put enough modern powerful bikes on the sideline then there may well be a rule change.

Who's in?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Bill checked , OEM automatic bikes are legal, at least the Honda 400/450, the Suzuki 450 and our beloved  750 automatics!  Yeah, y'all come on down, hear? Lol. Rd one, optional, Rd two not, win Rd 2 , your award is you get to go to Rd 3. All riders who complete Rd 2 get 21 points.  10 for each Rd win starting with the 3rd. They will run a minimum of 2 rounds in the morning and are hoping for 3! That's it! K. I like it,  Bill
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Offline gschuld

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Thats good Billy,  So what's the deal with line locks on an automatic?

George

Offline jweeks

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Frank posted -"Not sure if leaving off a button is legal in street ET as that is considered a starting line aid, so be careful about a line lock in that class. Eventually you will get protested- especially if you make rounds. Don't get caught up in that arrangement."
I asked Sam at the beginning of April, 2012 to get an official opinion of using a line lock in Street ET. Sam messaged me back that he was going to talk with Jay Reagan at the upcoming Valdosta event. That is where we found out that line locks are legal for all bikes in Street ET.
     All the postings here should benefit anyone building a CB750 based bike. That's why the $2,500 was raised for Cup event sponsorship. Finding good information on how to bracket race '70s era bikes isn't easy to find. This web site should be a big help.
     I've been though many, many protests, rules changes, etc. from racers who didn't like losing to a slow, old, Hondamatic. I ultimately got my equipment banned for 6 years at my home track. All this work to bring me down/quit had the effect to make me an expert on the rules. I could quote them exactly as written. I was good enough at it that a new track manager made me an IHRA tech inspector for 3 seasons. You take an exam each year. Protests on using me kept me from doing any tech work at that track. Several track owners later and I got my equipment banned. I moved to the other track in my state. About 2 years later, I became the bike tech inspector for that track. I've been doing tech inspections for the last 8+years there.
     What I read from Frank was to not use a line lock on a Hondamatic. Why? Because you may get protested. Because it is a starting line aid. Jay Reagan didn't have any problem with line locks being used in Street ET as he considered them safety items. They perform the same function on clutch and automatic motorcycles. If protested and somehow approved, all line locks would have to be removed from the class. Since Sam asked the direct question, I don't know of any reason why there could be a protest of that. You don't start with a protest; you start with a question of the tech people - "Are line locks legal in Street ET?" That ends that potential issue. I have a big sore spot for anyone who gets beat by something different and the first response is to protest them. Frank is familiar with that attitude.
     How does a Hondamatic hold a particular rpm on the starting line without a 2 step? Now that's a better question. People seem to want to equate a torque converter to a slider clutch. A slider clutch will launch a bike at a particular rpm. A torque converter will launch at a rpm that varies with the motor's power. On a hot day, a Hondamatic in Street ET will launch at several hundred rpms lower than it will in cold air days. The power of the motor determines the rpm that the motor will load against the torque converter fluid flow. The torque converter varies far more than the slider does. MiRock series seemed to have a person in power who felt that slider=torque converter. Their rules specified that all bikes in Street ET must launch with the action of a clutch lever. An interesting side note: Vic Force ran the Worm in Street ET at a MiRock event....(He didn't win)
     The 2016 Cup rules never stated that all bikes in Street ET must have a clutch. There are rules for the bikes who have clutches to ensure that they aren't running sliders. Bill got that confirmed.
     Automatics don't wheelie off the line with less than 105 horses at the rear wheel, unless you're adding weight to try to make a wheelie machine. I haven't afforded to go much higher in power. They don't behave like 130 rear wheel hp (or higher) that most dragbikes have. Hondamatics don't launch at 7 grand, or 8 grand, or 9 grand like dragbikes do. Enough  money and you might be able to get there. Thousands of $$ to make your bracket bike less repeatable. That's why I say that it's apples and oranges. If you don't know the answer ask the question, don't offer solutions. Build the bike for your own preferences. Don't build it differently to avoid protests. When you get there, you've already done a lot right. Just know the rules when you start.

Offline dragracer

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The bottom line here is last year, a lot of effort and cash was put forth to get as many SOHC bikes out to rave and possible and we fell miserably short. This year I'd like to see the count increase exponentially. The one thing we don't need is for someone to go through a lot of work and not be able to race because the rules exclude you. I prefer a clutch bike by not everyone can ride one with consistency. I'm still trying to learn. Autos have been shown to be more consistent when set up right as in the case of Chad Isley. But then Chad is a great rider on anything with two wheels. Vic Force and Pops have also shown by example on a National level what a slower auto can do.

Again, all that matters to me is getting the SOHC count up without a glitch in the  end. We've got less than 11 days left to be prepared to race. Lets work together, collectively, to make this a successful outing.

Offline jweeks

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I'll talk with the tech inspector at Valdosta to reconfirm that line locks are legal in Street ET.

A side note on Chad. Per Pops, Chad used an air cylinder to apply the rear drum brake on the starting line. He used a button on the handlebars to launch the bike. It can be done electrically or pneumatically.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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We all one big happy family!  ;D Man, lookee here, I got work to do! Thank you Jay! K.,Bill
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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I'll talk with the tech inspector at Valdosta to reconfirm that line locks are legal in Street ET.

A side note on Chad. Per Pops, Chad used an air cylinder to apply the rear drum brake on the starting line. He used a button on the handlebars to launch the bike. It can be done electrically or pneumatically.

Jon, I don't think it's line locks that are the problem now. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that all clutches must be hand operated. If you remember the first event we went to at Rockingham, it said the same in their rules so I contacted their Tech rules director Marion Ford and asked him about the Hondamatic, he said that was a totally different thing and we was allowed to race in Street ET, I think all this went on in the open forum of Dragbike.com and before you know it, the owner of the Mirock  Series joined in and over ruled him, he said we would have to run in the Pro ET class and that's what we did.
Please don't quote me on this as you all know what my brain has gone through in the past 22 months but I think the same guy who over ruled his Tech Director with Mirock at Rockingham is now calling some of the shots at Man Cup in an advisory capacity.

Sam. ;)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Jay says we can race.... we can race! Carry on.K. Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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That's ok then, hahaha have fun guys and be safe.
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Offline dragracer

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And that's settled- for now!!!

Looking forward to seeing everyone. Lets have some fun this season and turn on lots of win lights.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Everyone is upset by all these changes to the rules, hahahaha.
C95 sprint bike.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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We all one big happy family!  ;D Man, lookee here, I got work to do! Thank you Jay! K.,Bill

Candy time!! More addictive than crack I'd bet.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline POPS 911

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Jon Mr. HONDAMATIC : I never said CHAD INSLEY had a air button lock on rear brake ! It was a SUZUKI rider that ran 8.90s against the GOT BRUCE BIKES....... I watched Chad lift his right foot off the stock brake pedal and off he went, at the 1315' he looked left or right to get that win with a 508-501 light.
I watched the tech guy at MAN CUP = but watched bikes with no chain guards, low cut tennis shoes, no kill tethers, out side NOS bottles with no valve protectors, less than 2", air tanks hooked on with zip ties under the bike, I did tech myself and walked the track many times before a race just ask 8.20 KENNY SCHWARTZ these were my friends and we were all going home at the end of the DAY.

POPS BK647 NHRA

Offline jweeks

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Sorry for my mistake Pops.
"At IDBA races I watched CHAD make many passes and never seen him wheelie much, but he got many win tickets = their is a reason I called him BIG KID w/a smile as he was 200+ pounds. One of the best PRO RACERS that gave " GOT BRUCE " BIKES A RUN FOR THE MONEY had his clutch lever hooked to a air cylinder on his rear foot brake lever so when he pulled in his clutch this held the brake down and locked, turned on and off with a toggle switch before and after launch, he had a lock up in that GS motor. Never seen him red light.... no KREEPING on two step."

Chad stopped racing his Hondamatic due to variations in ET that he thought could be improved with other brand quicker clutch bikes. I thought that "one of the best PRO RACERS" was Chad. My bad.
     We share the same safety concerns with tech inspections. I  can't control what any other inspector does. When I've been tech there has been no accidents, no injuries ever. A little luck is involved and constant monitoring. We all want everyone to go home safe at the end of a day.

Offline underdog

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Bill how are you going to figure out your gearing? There will be some slippage from the converter so a regular gearing chart wont be very accurate. How much slippage are you figuring on through the traps?

Offline Sam Green Racing

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I don't think that is something that you can work out underdog. You can only go off previous runs / times but when you are altering things all the time to get better performance / times, everything is just guess work.

Sam. ;)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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16/52 530 pitch, 10,000 rpm's through the lights! That's where Samauto left off!  Prolly go to 17/52 or 16/49. We'll see, 72mm ought to do sumpin! Hehe, lol. Little 836+ has cases together, this was early last night! Love me Carrillo's!  Valdosta here we come! Can't go no further til my metal base gasket comes in tomorrow!  Off to NC in the morning, Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
______________________________________
See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE