Author Topic: Stupid Tuning question...sorry  (Read 2423 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline babyfood1217

  • The only way to drink espresso is as a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • I miss my baby...
Stupid Tuning question...sorry
« on: May 30, 2005, 06:59:31 PM »
Hello again-I apologize in advance for the nature of this question, but I just can't seem to find the answers I am looking for.  So I'm rebuilding my 1976 cb750 k, and I'm getting near the point where I can put things back together and start worrying about it running again.  Just today I cleaned all of my valves, and let me tell you the exhaust valves were burnt to sh*t.  So my bike was running rich when I started the teardown (not surprising considering the sad state of my 4-2 slash cut side pipes that had been on there when I got it...multiple rust holes, no baffles, it looked like it wanted to cry).  Well, when it is reassembled, it will have a brand new 4-1 exhaust on it (CBR1000rr undertail), stock air-box (for the time being), and will be thoroughly cleaned up. 

Now to the question...

How does one tune their carbs!!!  I get so confused reading about jets and bowls and needles and this and that, I don't know what to think.  I have a shop manual, so I can go by that for a little bit, but I don't really know what I'm doing.  I did decide however, that to save time and hassle, I'll leave my tank off and connect the fuel line with a long hose, just so getting at the plugs to check their condition isn't as big of a process.  I also know that an ideal plug will have a medium tan color with no oil, carbon build up, or white deposits (running lean I believe).  Are there any good sources for helping a newbie out?  A "tuning for dummies" so to speak.
Ha, or better yet, is there anyone in South-central wisconsin who would like to help a poor guy out?  I'll buy you beer and take you out to dinner in return (or pay you...whatever).  Otherwise, I thought about taking the bike to the local dyno-equipped shop and have one of the mechanics walk me through how to do it.  There, I guess that was more than one question.  Thanks all!

-Chris
I need help moving my project bike from Wisconsin to Seattle, WA.  Willing to pay well.  Contact if interested.

SOHC member: #438

Project: 1976 CB750K
GSXR forks, Monoshock Rear end, 836 in progress, RC51 pipes, custom frame and everything else.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Stupid Tuning question...sorry
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2005, 07:11:16 PM »
I'm still very much the beginner when it comes to carb tuning myself, but I can tell you be prepared to develop a love/hate relationship with them.  :) >:(. Don't be suprised if you have then off and on mulitple times. Frankly, I wish they had zippers on the damn things.

I do think the plug observation you are referring to (plug chop to some, throttle chop to others) is done when you get the bike running and you can take it on the road. Very little, save for observing plugs wet with gas, can be told at this stage.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline oldbiker

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,101
  • I HATE RAIN
Re: Stupid Tuning question...sorry
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2005, 02:41:43 AM »
Chris, there is no such thing as a stupid question. They are all easy if you know the answer and difficult if you don't.  My advice is to start off with all settings as given in the shop manual. Alterations to standard are only done in a specific order.
Believe it or not the first  thing is the main jet which is chosen by doing a plug chop [throttle chop] after a 15-30 second flat out burst. This involves snapping the throttle shut and killing the ignition and pulling in the clutch so that the motor stops turning as quickly as possible. Now the colour of the insulator in the plug tells you if the mixture is weak/rich or right.
A similar performance at about three quarter throttle will tell you if the needle [clip in groove] setting is right.
between slow run and 1/2 -3/4 throttle is controlled by the cutaway on the carburretor slides and unless your'e a very particular racing rider not something you will have to alter.
Tickover or slow running is set by the little screws which set the mixture with te throttle closed.
This is obviously a very condensed description of a process I learned over 31 years racing.
GOOD LUCK.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Stupid Tuning question...sorry
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2005, 03:23:30 AM »
Be aware that fuel /mixture requirements change with the load placed on the engine. While you'll make adjustments in your garage, testing the machine for correct jetting (besides idle) needs a dyno or track and stopwatch.

 Perhaps this will help with better understanding.

Your carbs have three fuel metering devices as well as several air metering devices.  The fuel metering devices supply fuel all the time while the engine is running.  But each dominate the equation for their intended RPM range.
You have a main jet.  This is primarily selected to provide the maximum required fuel at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) when the slide has fully opened the carburetor throat.
When the slide is partially closed, not only does it restrict the air going through the carb throat, but the attached tapered needle (Jet needle) then inserts into the needle jet.  The needle jet also has what is called an emulsion tube.  The emulsion tube has several holes in it where air is premixed into the fuel before being passed to the carb throat.   The midrange mixture ratio is thereby primarily determined by the taper profile of the slide needle, the needle jet orifice, the emulsion tube hole sizes, and their location in the emulsion tube where it is determined how much air is premixed with the fuel for the various slide needle positions.  Finally, we come to the slow jet which is selected to provide the correct fuel mixture for idle speeds.  This jet also has a small emulsion tube on it.  The air that goes to it can be adjusted with the pilot screws found on the side of the carb body.  While the slow jet system does provide fuel over the whole RPM range, it’s contribution compared with the midrange or main fuel metering systems is very small.  Conversely, there is leakage from the main and midrange systems that can have an effect on the slow jet metering.

So, how do you select the correct jetting?  Well, in the ideal world, you would put the machine on a dynamometer that will load the engine at whatever speed you wish to examine and provide you with a measurement of power output.  Then you would use instrumentation to measure intake and exhaust gas temps, and the exhaust gas composition to determine how thoroughly the fuel is being converted to power.  Too many Hydrocarbons would tell you to lean the mixture.  And,  perhaps, detonation sensors attached to the cylinder head would warn you if it was way too lean.  You’d lean down until you got max. power.
For your CB, you’d start with Main jet selection at WOT.  Then repeat the tests at midrange rpms to find the correct needle taper profile and emulsion tube hole sizes and locations.  Finally, measure idle exhaust gasses for low hydrocarbons with the smallest size slow jet for optimum and the accompanying pilot screw setting.  This would have to be balanced with off idle response.  The carbs are set toward the rich side to acheive this.

What? You can’t find one of these dynamometers at the local hardware store?  Well, 30-40 years ago these kind of adjustments were made with the seat-of-the-pants-and-stopwatch-dyno. Coupled with the ability to read your spark plugs to determine what the heck was going on in the combustion chambers of the engine after that last change you made.  This approach can be cheaper than renting Dyno and instrumentation time.  But, it might be more costly in terms of personal time and effort. However, depending on your talent, patience, and perhaps stubornness, the results can be just as satisfying.

Hope this helps,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline mrbreeze

  • Not your average
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,902
  • Shut up when you're talkin' to me!!
Re: Stupid Tuning question...sorry
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 09:48:44 PM »
I couldn't of had said it better myself......Do what I am in the process of doing now....Keep reading these posts.....Ask alot of questions(dumb ones or otherwise) Look at the Greenspun Archives.....(Great info there)..Get as much info as you can through shop manuals,this website,etc. If something doesn't make sense to you,ask more questions(dumb ones or otherwise).Its called learning and at least we can tell that you aren't "FRAID" to dive in and do it yourself(Thats a good thing!!!) Good Luck Dude!!!
MEMBER # 257
Fool me once..shame on you. Fool me twice..I'm kickin' your a$$......

Offline gkw120649

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: Stupid Tuning question...sorry
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2005, 08:05:19 AM »
Check out the following link concerning rebuilding and tuning carbs.  Good luck.

Greg

http://www.salocal.com/sohc/tech/carb/carb.htm
1977 CB-750 K
1978 CB-750 K