Author Topic: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts  (Read 1873 times)

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Offline chubby

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   I have owned a great number of automobiles over the years and recently was sold a 1994 Pontiac Grandam for $350 with efi and automatic transmission.  I was so impressed by the raw brute power coming out of this little 3.1 liter v6 engine that I was sure it had overhead cams and a timing belt etc.  The  last time I drove something with this same getup'n go was a couple of years ago, which was a 1990 Plymouth Acclaim with a 3 liter engine with overhead cams and timing belt.  I have found both cars to be near identical in power and performance and this left me wondering if there isn't a whole lot more to this debate, than just this difference between the 2 types of engines.  For instance my Ford minivan has a 3 liter engine as well but yet this van's acceleration can at best be described as gaining momentum.  From a reliability point of view in reading different forums debating the issue of which is better between the two, it has usually came down to the timing belt which provides limited reliability and requires more maintenance.  Some auto manufacturers have kept the overhead cams or even dual overhead cams but have provided a very long timing chain in lieu of the timing belt previously used. With dual overhead cams the number of parts required and the subsequent weakening of the heads to accommodate the extra holes is not a plus.  The very long chain has not came without it's limitations as well, as it's much more difficult to maintain the right tension on such a long chain.  It is also not uncommon to have the entire spark-plugs pop out of the aluminum engines with aluminum threads because of the obvious reason coupled with the higher resulting compression found in these engines, resulting in lower reliability. ex.(Ford Triton engine).   The cost of using such a long timing chain has required that manufacturers use chains made in places with cheap labor and standards resulting in defective chains that have come apart thus damaging major engine components, which luckily for the consumer were often repaired while still under warranty.  ex: A co-worker of mine bought a new (Intrepid, made by Dodge), just a few months later was left walking as his timing chain had came apart.  Luckily for him it was still under warranty.  For myself I like reliable first before performance and fuel economy, I really like to be able to complete my drives to and from work without breakdowns.  I prefer quiet performance so I can listen to a great sounding car stereo, not the annoying rumble and rasping irritating noises of what some refer to as performance.  I prefer great fuel economy without having to suffer lack of performance, it's nice to have a choice all under the same hood, matched with superior reliability. The conventional engine from what I have seen lately still offers all of that.  For instance my gas mileage on my 94 Pontiac Grandam is 36mpg hw and 28 city, all from a v6 engine.  The 4 cylinder model I had previous was an 86 model, also efi was gutless and only got 28 mpg hw which was insufferable. This gas mileage was naturally calculated in imperial gallons converted over from liters at 4.5 liters to the imperial gallon.  The U.S gallon is much smaller at only 3.89 liters to the gallon, their road tests performed at only 42 mph in order to calculate hw fuel economy and city is performed at a continuous speed of 30 mph, with neither reflecting what the actual fuel consumption would reflect in reality.  When buying jugs of motor oil in Canada it is common to see different sizes of oil jugs.  there are 3.89 liter oil jugs, 4 liter and 5 liter, depending on the manufacturer and location of refinery.  To summarize this topic, The British Quad-4 and the 1911 Stutz racing cars, both remain a testament to the fact that for performance and racing purposes  the overhead cam engine delivers nearly equivalent power with far greater fuel economy to that of much larger conventional engines.  Yet these 4 cylinder engines have lost their edge in the field of racing, due to the same designs now having been incorporated on the larger engines, thus creating super-cars.  Racing car engines require more maintenance anyways, so frequent replacement of timing belts on these remains a non-issue.  Also if these break down, the driver doesn't usually have far to walk. For the rest of us whose purpose is going from A to B, the choice remains with reliability. You can't get the same performance out of a timing belt, which will never last the lifetime of an automobile, unlike a nice short timing chain mounted on a conventional engine.   Instead of moving towards less maintenance and greater reliability manufacturers have cheaped out in so many areas just in engines alone that one must wonder why the move away from the flat head engine in the first place. For viewing of the flat head engine google, flat head engine images.  These were still the best engines ever made, especially for the proper balance between all of these following, performance, reliability, durability with less parts, way less parts than today's engines.  Today computers for engines double the cost of an engine and yet in 1957 GM had fuel injection without a computer mounted on some of their engines, proving computers aren't necessary on vehicles, they are just used to justify the need for computer technicians and the need for more parts for manufacturers to sell to their customers.  All of these combines has nearly tripled the new selling price of today's automobiles beyond what they should be selling for.
 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 12:18:38 AM by chubby »

Offline chubby

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   I can see where there is lots of room for more topics on engines.  There was for instance a time when if your engine died you looked at your gas gauge and then if showing fuel, you took your tool box out of your trunk and pulled off a spark plug wire and turned the engine over checking for spark.  If spark was good then pulled off a fuel line and checked for fuel flow and pressure.  If these were good then pulled a spark plug and held thumb over hole while someone turned the engine over to ascertain existence of compression.  As it is only these 3 required for engine to run, common knowledge back then.  Today there are many sensors and switches all incorporating complex systems all working together to keep an engine running. If a fuel pump is defective the engine will not run and requires hours spent pulling off fuel tank to get at pump. Gone are the days of taking off a fuel line and manual fuel pump off side of engine and sticking on a new one for under $40.  Gone are the simple easy to replace points and condenser, replaced by tempermental electronic ignition systems that can be difficult to diagnose and repair, just a cam sensor can cause there to be no spark on today's vehicles.  People today would not even know how to start an engine that required much more than pulling a remote control out of their pocket, but at one time you pulled out the choke knob and turned the key until the starter engaged and the engine started.  Once running then you pushed the choke knob in half way and in about another minute it could be pushed in all the way and sit there running on low idle.  Oh yes the good old days, now the hot water tank, the furnace and every gadget known to man just has to have a computer or chip of some kind in it or they can't work.  It is obvious that there is a Billionaire or 2 or 3 out there forcing everyone to succumb to them to make them even richer, especially as the law reflects manufacturers only have to supply parts for their products for that products life cycle.  The average life cycle is 10 years but for DVD players it is 3 months, which is why most of these warranties are only 90 days.

Offline 333

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Offline dusterdude

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Offline Gordon

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If you want to edit your post and put in some/several paragraph breaks you will get a lot more readers.  It's difficult to read a wall of text like that, and I know I'm not alone in saying I won't even bother reading something that looks as difficult to read as that. 

Offline 70CB750

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If you want to edit your post and put in some/several paragraph breaks you will get a lot more readers.  It's difficult to read a wall of text like that, and I know I'm not alone in saying I won't even bother reading something that looks as difficult to read as that.

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Offline 333

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Offline ofreen

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manufacturers have cheaped out in so many areas just in engines alone that one must wonder why the move away from the flat head engine in the first place. For viewing of the flat head engine google, flat head engine images.  These were still the best engines ever made, especially for the proper balance between all of these following, performance, reliability, durability with less parts, way less parts than today's engines. 

Once in a while it is good to challenge your attention span's endurance (I read "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina" all the way through once) so I read the two posts.  To sum up, chubby believes simple is good, complex is bad.  On a forum devoted to old Japanese motorcycles, there are probably a few here that would agree.  I'd have to disagree with chubby about flatheads being the best engines ever made.  I have an affection for them, with several around the place, including the 4 Ford V8s below waiting for me to get to them.  But they excel in no area other than they peg the cool meter for those who like them.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2015, 02:47:50 AM »
manufacturers have cheaped out in so many areas just in engines alone that one must wonder why the move away from the flat head engine in the first place. For viewing of the flat head engine google, flat head engine images.  These were still the best engines ever made, especially for the proper balance between all of these following, performance, reliability, durability with less parts, way less parts than today's engines. 

Once in a while it is good to challenge your attention span's endurance (I read "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina" all the way through once) so I read the two posts. 



haha, that stuff is deadly.  20 pages to fall asleep, max.  ;D
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2015, 05:08:00 AM »
Funny you comparing chubby's post to war n peace ofreen.  Thanks for the laugh!  No way was I going to attempt to climb that wall of text.

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 10:08:39 AM »
I got through most of it. The push-rod 3100 in my oldsmobeemer seems to be reliable with normal maintainence.  It has power and seems to get good gas mileage with that proper maintainence.


That being said, changing out the factory's  lower valve cover gaskets (with oil and water passages) which are made of plasitc  for re engineered ones made of metal to correct this inherint flaw is not what I would call normal maintainence.  But this  is what is required to keep the car on the road past 60,000.

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Offline simon#42

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 10:21:40 AM »
manufacturers have cheaped out in so many areas just in engines alone that one must wonder why the move away from the flat head engine in the first place. For viewing of the flat head engine google, flat head engine images.  These were still the best engines ever made, especially for the proper balance between all of these following, performance, reliability, durability with less parts, way less parts than today's engines. 

Once in a while it is good to challenge your attention span's endurance (I read "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina" all the way through once) so I read the two posts.  To sum up, chubby believes simple is good, complex is bad.  On a forum devoted to old Japanese motorcycles, there are probably a few here that would agree.  I'd have to disagree with chubby about flatheads being the best engines ever made.  I have an affection for them, with several around the place, including the 4 Ford V8s below waiting for me to get to them.  But they excel in no area other than they peg the cool meter for those who like them.



if you have some time on your hands ofreen may i suggest ulysses by james joyce  that should keep you out of trouble for a while !

Offline hsas.69

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 07:56:02 PM »
My area of expertise. To start the gm 3.1L came originally from Oldsmobile. Although they were peppy they are nothing compared to modern 4 bangers. There are modern 2.0L 4 bangers making close to 200 hp naturally aspirated with FI and overhead cams and 3.5L v6's making 300. If you add direct fuel injection and or boost you have the potential for even more. Where as carbureted and early fuel injected engines of double those sizes were lucky to half that, with some exceptions.

The incorporation of overhead cams as well as fuel injection has been driven by the EPA, pushing automakers to lower emissions, as well as consumers demanding "performance" from the same engine. The EPA has continued to tighten the regulations over the years forcing automakers to keep lowering emissions they're vehicles are putting out as well as keeping their fuel economy up. That means the engine has to become more efficient in the combustion process to have cleaner emissions and still have the performance the consumer demands. This all applies to the US. The EPA's standards are why many foreign vehicles are not allowed to be sold in the states.

Anyway overhead cam engines buy design are more efficient, but like you said are more costly to manufacture. And modern overhead cam engines are every bit as strong and reliable as conventional in block cam engines. Every engine from every manufacturer has weak points as well as their strong points. Those strengths and weaknesses don't always carry over from one engine to another within a manufacturer.

With all that being said any modern engine should see over 100k miles no problem. I have seen many GM LS series engines, conventional, go over 300K no problem. I have also seen many Ford modular engines do the same.

As far as reliability goes it all comes down to maintenance. Use good oil and filters and change it every 3k miles regardless of what the manufacturer tells you about 5 and 10k mile changes. They dont care about how long the vehicle lasts for you, just that it makes it out of warranty.


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Offline hsas.69

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 07:59:03 PM »
I got through most of it. The push-rod 3100 in my oldsmobeemer seems to be reliable with normal maintainence.  It has power and seems to get good gas mileage with that proper maintainence.


That being said, changing out the factory's  lower valve cover gaskets (with oil and water passages) which are made of plasitc  for re engineered ones made of metal to correct this inherint flaw is not what I would call normal maintainence.  But this  is what is required to keep the car on the road past 60,000.
The 3100 or 3.1L was a good engine but the lower valve cover gaskets you refer too were actually the intake manifold gaskets. They went out usually around 60K. And on the second time of changing them or if you were really lucky the first around 120-125k you better put head gaskets on it too. Otherwise you'd be right back into the engine for those shortly.

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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: Which is better, Conventional engines or engines with overhead camshafts
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2015, 10:46:44 PM »
I got through most of it. The push-rod 3100 in my oldsmobeemer seems to be reliable with normal maintainence.  It has power and seems to get good gas mileage with that proper maintainence.


That being said, changing out the factory's  lower valve cover gaskets (with oil and water passages) which are made of plasitc  for re engineered ones made of metal to correct this inherint flaw is not what I would call normal maintainence.  But this  is what is required to keep the car on the road past 60,000.
The 3100 or 3.1L was a good engine but the lower valve cover gaskets you refer too were actually the intake manifold gaskets. They went out usually around 60K. And on the second time of changing them or if you were really lucky the first around 120-125k you better put head gaskets on it too. Otherwise you'd be right back into the engine for those shortly.

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That's right, manifold gaskets mus tbe what they called it. My neighborhood and I usually don't like to have a car that far apart that you're pulling push rods out in the driveway.
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