Author Topic: Bracket Racing Theory post.  (Read 1924 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,816
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Bracket Racing Theory post.
« on: December 17, 2015, 09:53:57 PM »
 Does anyone want to talk bracket racing? I'm no bike racer yet but have been crew chief for my daughters cars since the early 90's. Maybe I can share some hard learned info and learn something too. We finished #2 at the IHRA jr dragster nationals once, fifth in division 5 IHRA Quick rod, Won a few Super Comp races and finished #3 in our association this year.
 I plan to make some passes on my cb next year and need to learn how to launch a bike.

 Staging has been a recent interest, Finish line racing, How wheelies affect RT and dial in, Weather stations and Crew Chief Pro software.
 
 We had three races last spring where we hit the tree .00x and on the 8.90 index, were 8.90x half of our runs and were close most of the others. We won prizes for having 2 of the 6 best losing first round packages in 2015. (RT + ET) HA! The car was cursed with a wheelie problem that took us out of first place before I fixed it.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Online madmtnmotors

  • When did I get to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,090
  • Sunny Central Florida
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 04:01:58 AM »
I debuted my CB "drag racer" at Valdosta in November. Can't offer much, but I'll be following the discussion. I did win my very first round of competition! Got beat in round two by .034 when I let off before the line.  >:(

Never again! Run it out the back door!  8)
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

Sent from my Tandy TRS-80!

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,816
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 09:10:10 AM »
  Playing the stripe is a fine art, we've raced for years trying to dial hard and only close up the gap when it's big. The best racers can take off 2 to 5 hundredths at will. It takes a lot of runs to learn it.
  You have to leave first to have the best chance of finish line racing to get the win light. We have dialed to break out on purpose when we raced someone we knew would take the stripe.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,816
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 09:19:46 AM »
  When staging, rolling in an inch further can take .002 off of our reaction time and add that amount to our ET. a wheelie out of the beam has a similar effect. Rolling the front tire through the beam isn't the quickest way to start the timers but is the most consistent.
A bike probably has the best ability to stage as shallow as possible because it can easily be moved in until the stage beam is barely on. As shallow as possible is the only spot where you know exactly where in the beams you are.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 09:24:37 AM »
I suggest dont play the sandbagging game when starting out racing..
Just. Dial in near your best time, and run hard and full out...

Once you dial in.....change NOTHING...
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 09:29:54 AM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,725
  • Ex Honda Service Manager, Cert. Honda Tech - Racer
    • BentON Racing
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 10:26:52 AM »
Hell yes.Good thread,  C'mon Jon Weeks! This is going to be good, Bill.
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
______________________________________
See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,816
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 01:03:29 PM »
 True Frank, but if you notice you're a large distance ahead or the opponent isn't coming, avoid the breakout by whatever means is most safe.
 If you're running the 1/4 mile and lift or brake near the stripe you can estimate your ET by adding the 1,000' to finish line increment from a full run to this runs 1,000' time.

We went 50' and lost the fuel pump once, our opponent ran it out the back door and broke out giving us the win. We fixed a pinched wire, replaced a fuse and came back next round.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,902
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2015, 01:06:25 PM »
Without reading the entire thread YET all I will say is do not expect the track surface to be anywhere similar to the street. That is some sticky #$%*! Just try walking across it. Your hole shots will be entirely different.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,816
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2015, 01:10:02 PM »
 It will take your shoes off, I've seen backup girls do just that.

We won our first race ever in the first race car we ever built that had never been run before. When it's your day, it's just your day. It took a year to win again.

  I've always said if you race long enough you'll be there the day everyone else beats themselves.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline dragracer

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,101
  • CB750F Dragbike
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 01:13:07 PM »
I personally like to stage as shallow as possible because I tend to redlight on a full tree. Also, my bikes tend to react fairly quick so I have to be very particular where I stage up. I also try to be sure the air pressure in the front tire is the same before each pass as it will affect rollout. 32psi is the max although higher pressures help to miminize rolling resistance which can potentially increase MPH. I have lowered pressure somewhat when I can't seem to control my tendency to redlight but that's a very last resort on a bike. A staging disc could be helpful if the front wheel/tire is very narrow. The disc increases rollout and is primarily used in pro Et classes where the reaction times get really tight if you expect to take the stripe.

Pulling the wheel out of the beams on launch is something to be mindful of as well, but if that happens on a no bar bike you've already thrown away the pass. Most of our old bikes don't leave hard enough to lift the wheel up unless we've not perfected the use of the throttle and clutch hand off the line. a staging disc.

As to my launch technique, I roll into the prestage slowly to light the bulb, I then get my body set on the bike. As I bring the rpm's up I'm then rolling to the stage beam and stop as soon as I see it come on. I'm normally the slower bike so having the rpm's up while the light is coming down prepares me to launch on the last yellow bulb. I then release the clutch as quickly as I can but not throwing it completely away until the bike is moving no more than 10' out. I lock the throttle as soon as I start to release the clutch and the bike moves.

As to the dial in, I will try to average my 2 runs and use that as my dial in. If I don't feel comfortable with any of the passes, I tend to dial based on the quickest pass. I leave no more than one number on the table for my dial in most cases. No bar bikes with stock hand clutches don't always repeat exactly round after round, but I don't like to sandbag when I riding a slow bike. As someone mentioned, sandbagging only works if you had a better reaction time than your opponent, so you then control the stripe. If you screw up at the light and your opponent has a better reaction time, odds are you will breakout trying to cross the stripe first.


Offline cb650

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,864
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 03:33:22 PM »
I thought I had the slowest bike!!! ;D      With that said it just takes practice.  Took me a couple years to get it all sorted out to what worked for the bike and me.   BTW  I dont think I did all that bad after that. 
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,902
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 06:03:23 PM »
Damn, Terry is looking in......  Come on down and help me finish up the 1000  ;D
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline jweeks

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2015, 08:28:27 PM »
All good stuff. Automatics are a little different, depending on how you launch them.  They need wide open throttle on the starting line and launch off of the rear brake. Variations are less than the clutch equivalent. A big variation is oil temperature. When the bike is cold, it runs considerably slower. As the bike oil heats up, the bike runs quicker until it is up to normal running temperature. I've always advocated an aftermarket oil cooler to control oil temperature, especially in the warmer summers. I  also like to have the density altitude available for every run. A run log book with your racing history is the best thing for estimating dial-ins.  In hot weather I like to use a fan on the front of the motor (facing the oil cooler) that I run for around 10 minutes between rounds. Where legal two steps help your launch, especially for the clutch versions.
     You have one point of reaction in your mind to the light on the tree that you launch  from. Trying to change your leave reaction makes for big changes, usually costing you the race. Moving the front wheel forward in staging does decrease your reaction time and increase your ET by the same amount. There is no magic .002 per inch that I'm aware of. It depends on how quickly your bike launches. The slower the bike launches, the bigger reduction in ET by moving the bike forward in staging. Repeating a deeper than normal stage requires a little assist. I like to use my boot on the ground as the point of reference for moving forward. Peg to front edge of the heel gives you a pretty good reference point. Move the bike forward one inch/two inches or whatever works and see where the peg lines up with what's left of the boot heel. Just repeat that every round and you'll get some confidence with your placement on the line.
     We aren't robots. We vary in our reactions. Use with a practice tree, recording the reaction numbers, gives you an idea of the range of your variations. More practice usually reduces the variations.  Use the practice tree the same way that you race. Don't use it more frequently than say once every 15 minutes. What you eat and drink can also affect your reactions. I use soda for when I need a little quicker reaction. Other foods will make you a little more sluggish. Your biggest variation is from what's on your mind. Any distraction will hurt your reactions. Wondering what the opponent is going to run while the tree is coming down will usually slow your reactions. Empty your mind and just see the light and react to it.  When Bill got his first round win at Rockingham, I told him to enjoy it because it would be a while before his second one. Your mind starts filling up with thoughts after you get a taste of winning. That will hurt you until you can empty the mind, see the light, and react. We all learn many ways to lose before we figure out a consistent way to win.
     New racers shouldn't play the finish line. You can't judge the various closing speed from your opponents. The best at it can't judge the line within .030. Only if you're sure that the opponent has no chance of catching you, then you can slow down a little. Raising your head to catch more air or steering a little away from the direction you're going to cross the line to make the track a little longer can usually ensure that you don't break out.
     OK Bill, there's my opinions.  ;)

Offline cb650

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,864
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2015, 09:26:49 PM »
Damn, Terry is looking in......  Come on down and help me finish up the 1000  ;D
PM me your schedule for the next couple weeks and I might make it down.  Have a forced vacation the next two weeks.
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline POPS 911

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Bracket Racing Theory post.
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 08:21:52 AM »
Make sure you are in first gear [Hondamatic = L ] hope you did air up tank and turn on the gas, check for head or tail wind [ wind sock or flags ] , check your dial in on the boards, stage shallow [that beam is 1 inch off the ground ] , have a pair of glasses that bring that last yellow bulb at the end of you nose, DO-NOT red light, look straight down the track, stay straight in the lane, and if you have a weather station dial- in hand held tool = you got the number, take a left or right look at 1315'........ lift or take the stripe.   Go get that win ticket = RIGHT, FRANK in the 10's............. S/E RECORD HOLDER