Author Topic: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014  (Read 15216 times)

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Offline chewbacca5000

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RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« on: December 30, 2015, 01:22:50 PM »
I know some of you feel like you should be doing better earning more at your stage in life and I feel the same way.  Then a blog posted that stated that 51% of Americans were making less than 30k per year, and I had to look it up for myself.  It made me feel better knowing I am not alone.

Here is the official statistics from the Social Security department https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2014

Offline rb550four

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2015, 02:36:31 PM »
   Isn't that still POVERTY LEVEL ? I mean , if this country is as great as the rich people say, we should all be doing quite a bit better.
Oh oh, My mistake, THEY would be doing quite a bit better.

 
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2015, 02:49:31 PM »
I once met a foreign tourist that made the comment about the US being the wealthiest country. I replied what's your definition of rich and just exactly who is it that you think in the US is rich because it sure as hell isn't me.  :o
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Offline calj737

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 03:34:18 PM »
Those statistics are badly skewed due to the Labor Participation rate being at its lowest since the '70s. The tens of millions of the population who do not work legally or within the tax system, the exclusion of the military forces who are not part of these calculations, etc...

And people wonder why theres a grouchy portion of this country angered over socialistic agendas? Really? Fix the freakin' economy and stop paying/giving our tax dollars away and then, maybe just then, the job market will return for a significant portion of the population.

Ever wonder why the top 10% of the wage earners in America (>$250k) pay 90% of all collected income tax? Its because 50% of the population doesn't pay any. Calculate in the enormous amount of benefits from State/Federal assistance to these low income families, and many actually earn well into the high $40sK and low $50k range. Freedom isn't a guarantee, its an opportunity.

Rant over.
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2015, 04:36:48 PM »
Wow CalJ, I don't think that is very nice what you just said about me (up 'til about 3 years ago when I got a better job), Chewbacca, and any one else who works hard for little money.

Ever wonder why the top 10% of the wage earners in America (>$250k) pay 90% of all collected income tax? Its because 50% of the population doesn't pay any. Calculate in the enormous amount of benefits from State/Federal assistance to these low income families, and many actually earn well into the high $40sK and low $50k range. Freedom isn't a guarantee, its an opportunity.

Pretty sure Chewie pays his taxes, as did I when I was getting paid 12.25 an hour to do dangerous skilled labor in the wood working industry...and funny thing is, I don't recall recieving a single cent of state/federal assistance while I struggled to keep a float...I must have just forgot about all of that or something.

Chewbacca, you just need to go on out tomorrow and get yourself a real job like I did as we all know, Buffalo must just be bursting at the seems with opportunity...
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2015, 05:13:55 PM »
Guys not trying to start a debate here just trying to figure things out that is all.  If anyone could tell me how to bump my pay up that would be great.  I have a 4 year college degree, 15 years in IT and have been making less than $35k for the past 6 years.

After the taxes, insurance I had about $18k to live on.  To get that money I had to give 20 to 30 hrs free time to my employer and be available 24/7/365.

I know that I need to make serious changes as I am not confident $30k in 10 years will be enough to pay for the basics.  If anyone knows how I can get up to $60k here in Syracuse, NY it would be appreciated.

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2015, 05:38:49 PM »
Chewy, you'll prolly not get what you're worth in the 'Cuse. Standard of living costs vary wildly. That said, a relo might be in order.
Economy is a dangerous thing to opine about.  Keep in mind that our general economic indicators are horribly out of date AND the "economy" does better when "productivity" is up - essentially meaning folks doing more work for the same amt of money. This equals wage stagnation which is where we will be for the next 3 years at least.

I didn't want to get in on this discussion but I just can't help myself. Cal is right about the data being skewed, but, imo, wrong about the reasons. It's not the economy itself that needs fixing - the economy doesn't care and reacts to input - but rather the Kind of economy we're running which is entirely consumer-based. Cal, you are well-read, this I know, and in one way I agree with you - end ALL subsidies, especially those to big business. We,however, have a duty as a Nation to take care of our less fortunate.

I'm sure I'll be back, but right now gotta run. Happy New Year you wonderful bastiches!
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Offline calj737

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 05:44:35 PM »
Wow CalJ, I don't think that is very nice what you just said about me (up 'til about 3 years ago when I got a better job), Chewbacca, and any one else who works hard for little money.
What part of the statistics I cited (that come straight from the IRS website data) do you find "not nice"? Chewy cited some SSA data that a large portion of our population earns less than $30k and I provided some ancillary data and you get offended. Odd.

And the fact is, less than 50% of our population contributes $0 to the collected income tax. And, as I said, the top 10% contribute 90%. Those are the standing statistics for decades due to tax rates. Begrudge "those who are wealthy" but without their tax contributions, 50% of our population wouldn't get ZERO for assistance that is needed.

More frightening data is that since 1989 the per person income in the US has dropped form over $145k to under $65k. That's not because a small percentage of the population got uber rich, it's because of dopey economic policies that deprive the economy of growth and individuals of opportunity. Welcome to the economic slavery of your own making.
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Offline Gene

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 05:52:11 PM »
Ha, Cal it looks like wrote over each other. Understand, tho, you can't trust the IRS stats either.  This is about the fact that we have fully transitioned from a mfg economy to a service economy.  Chewy has marketable skills in a bad market. Wage stagnation is the issue, not taxes.

We do, in fact, have one of the "wealthiest" nations on the planet in terms of total income, GDP, GNP, etc. but that does not trickle down to the everyday working men and women. It's not evil, it just happens to be where we are. Until we change our ideals and dump the old ones we are doomed to failure. Adapt or die.
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Offline Gene

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2015, 05:57:01 PM »
P.s. Sounds like we're running for office
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2015, 06:06:54 PM »
Fact is, we North Americans keep shipping our middle class jobs to cheap overseas labour pools. Most if not all large scale manufacturing is done in China and Mexico. Tach sector is already predominantly Chineese and increasingly going to India. Why? Because we want every thing for nothing and allow big business to sub out our jobs to low cost countries. As Americans continue to get poorer, they increasingly become dependant on low cost products. Short sighted or self fulfilling? You decide.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 06:09:39 PM by FunJimmy »
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Offline calj737

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2015, 06:15:15 PM »
Ha, Cal it looks like wrote over each other. Understand, tho, you can't trust the IRS stats either.  This is about the fact that we have fully transitioned from a mfg economy to a service economy.  Chewy has marketable skills in a bad market. Wage stagnation is the issue, not taxes.

We do, in fact, have one of the "wealthiest" nations on the planet in terms of total income, GDP, GNP, etc. but that does not trickle down to the everyday working men and women. It's not evil, it just happens to be where we are. Until we change our ideals and dump the old ones we are doomed to failure. Adapt or die.
The reference to taxes was an analogy to "percentiles" being represented as indicators of economics. Gene, you and I may agree anpbiut some things, but we differ greatly on the nature of our economy. It is no longer a MFG economy we agree, but it is now a credit-based economy and a debt-based economy. That means no "little people" will ever see an improvement in their financial status.

The culprits aren't big business, it's corrupt and inept politicians for the past 50+ years that have attempted economic policies that absolutely don't work and have driven this country into $128,000,000,000,000 worth of liability. That number by the way, exceeds all known wealth on planet earth. And it's all ours.

That 51% Chewy mentions, they may or may not currently be receiving assistance to live, but you can fully expect that this number will grow drastically in the coming few short years. Whether you make $30k, $75k, $200k or $2.2M, it won't matter. The credit/debt issues are insurmountable and we will all shortly be staring into a financial abyss of no return.
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2015, 06:20:17 PM »
Wow CalJ, I don't think that is very nice what you just said about me (up 'til about 3 years ago when I got a better job), Chewbacca, and any one else who works hard for little money.
What part of the statistics I cited (that come straight from the IRS website data) do you find "not nice"? Chewy cited some SSA data that a large portion of our population earns less than $30k and I provided some ancillary data and you get offended. Odd.

And the fact is, less than 50% of our population contributes $0 to the collected income tax. And, as I said, the top 10% contribute 90%. Those are the standing statistics for decades due to tax rates. Begrudge "those who are wealthy" but without their tax contributions, 50% of our population wouldn't get ZERO for assistance that is needed.

More frightening data is that since 1989 the per person income in the US has dropped form over $145k to under $65k. That's not because a small percentage of the population got uber rich, it's because of dopey economic policies that deprive the economy of growth and individuals of opportunity. Welcome to the economic slavery of your own making.
statistics smatistics...to me(and probably to many others in similar situations)it sounded more like you said the working poor does not carry their fair share of the tax burden.  To someone who is or has been in this situation this is extremely insulting.  If that is not what you meant, I apologize.  If that is what you meant, than I wish you extreme ill will.  Simple as that.
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Offline calj737

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2015, 06:33:24 PM »
statistics smatistics...to me(and probably to many others in similar situations)it sounded more like you said the working poor does not carry their fair share of the tax burden.
To an extent, that is exactly true. You pay about 20% federal tax rate for every dollar, someone earning $300k pays over 40%. The latter pays a much higher share of their income to receive exactly the same level of services. To my math, that is not a fair share of the tax burden.

Quote
To someone who is or has been in this situation this is extremely insulting.
To anyone in a low income situation, the significant percentage of these people are there due to choices they've made; either to not continue their education, a career choice in a low-paying trade, early marriage/kids, whatever. But its far too often about their choices. I respect anyone that works in whatever they do. Those that can not due to disability, I have respect for them also. Those who make poor choices to create a financial situation for themselves and their offspring when they can not support themselves, I harbor animosity towards their selfish irresponsibility.

Quote
If that is not what you meant, I apologize.  If that is what you meant, than I wish you extreme ill will.  Simple as that.
If you don't like the facts, don't wade into a fact-based thread. I didn't create these conditions, I simply live within them. Unlike you, I don't wish people of different mindsets ill will. To each their own.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2015, 06:38:13 PM »
I do not seek to insult those who have not insulted me.  Maybe that says a little something about the choices made that result in varying economic situations.
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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2015, 06:50:48 PM »
I do not seek to insult those who have not insulted me.  Maybe that says a little something about the choices made that result in varying economic situations.
whatever that means...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline FunJimmy

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2015, 06:52:37 PM »
Can't all work in an intellectual white collar corporate world.
Somebody has to do the work. Somebody has to produce.
That somebody should be Americans! Job creation is the key to prosperity!
Prosperity of the nation not just a few individuals and over paid CEO's.
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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2015, 07:04:05 PM »
Here is something I have NEVER understood: how can ANY economy survive as a "service economy"? Someone has to BUILD the 'stuff' that is to be "serviced", or the whole thing will implode, and quickly, as nothing is actually being produced.

...and software is one of the things that implodes faster than any other 'product' ever created, IMHO...but then, I've only been writing software since 1970, so what do I know?
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Offline Gene

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2015, 07:10:41 PM »
Cal, I agree that we are going to see the income-disparity increase if we don't do something.  But, I disagree on the politics of it. 

The National Debt has very little to do with real-world workers on the ground. 

Jimmy - yeah, and the Philipinos are also being used to a great degree.  But, again, this comes back to the fact that our current issue - the "great recession (and the still-lingering effects of it) - Workers are not getting paid to the degree they once were relative to their skills.

For example, a coal miner out of work doesn't give a damn that the coal being used - in neighborhoods that don't have the clout to fight back - might actually be damaging the well-being of the residents in that community.  They don't, and they shouldn't, they only care about being out of work because of what is seen as an over-reaching environmental policy by those in charge.  They feel this way because that is what they've been told and they have no context to the real problems; i.e. people getting sick because of the fumes that coal plants produce. (another p.s. - this could turn into an entirely different argument).

BUT - if, for example, we offered, as a nation, job re-retraining for those put out of work by closing deadly plants, whatever they may be, we could be on to something.  For example, my wife worked for US Steel.  They closed the plant and offered retraining in computer basics and typing, etc.  She was hard-core blue collar but took the training, got a gig (a painful one), learned enough to get a better gig and eventually became a civil engineer.  I should mention that before the degree she went back into the oil fields and became a pipe-line scheduler - the money was great but not worth it. (this belongs on another thread I've been following, my apologies).

Anyway, the point is, we've an antiquated system of measuring performance, and it may well be that the "middle-class", which was once mostly manufacturers and factory workers, simply doesn't exist anymore.  None of this answers the question of how does Chewy make 60K in Syracuse, but maybe I just needed to get some of this off my chest.  Again, apologies, I'm sick as a damned dog and I have a New Year's Eve gig tomorrow night . . . so I'm rambling.

Chewy - sending a PM.
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Offline Gene

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2015, 07:15:49 PM »
Can't all work in an intellectual white collar corporate world.
Somebody has to do the work. Somebody has to produce.
That somebody should be Americans! Job creation is the key to prosperity!
Prosperity of the nation not just a few individuals and over paid CEO's.

You're right - we can't all work in an office.  I don't want the guy fixing my plumbing to have a degree in philosophy.  But, until manufacturers get the clue that we are not going back to the idea of setting the Cuyahoga on fire (i.e. - deal with environmental restrictions and get the hell over it) we are stuck for now.

We SHOULD build things, we SHOULD be a leader in the world economy of manufacturing but we should also realize that these changes may result in concurrent changes in how we live our life, and maybe even the motorcycles we own.  I know that's sacrilege, but we are the smartest country on the damned planet!  We can do better.

EDIT: Hondaman, I get it.  It kills me too, but we have to come up with better, smarter ways to actually produce things.  And personally, I think we can, I just don't know if we've tried hard enough.  Like - can we produce a synthetic Zinc to work in our oil?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 07:18:42 PM by Gene »
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Offline Gene

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2015, 07:20:25 PM »
BTW - I was looking originally looking for a thread on "rust" . . . anyone seen that?
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Offline calj737

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2015, 07:20:47 PM »
Can't all work in an intellectual white collar corporate world.
Somebody has to do the work. Somebody has to produce.
That somebody should be Americans! Job creation is the key to prosperity!
Prosperity of the nation not just a few individuals and over paid CEO's.
There's heaps of truth in that Jimmy, though "jobs" doesn't solve the economic problems the US faces. Certain "jobs" are the significant culprit of our $128 TRILLION of unfunded liability. Don't take me for a "white collar intellectual". I'm a working stiff like others. I just don't limit my perception and focus my aggression towards entrepreneurs and investors. After all, everyone in this country has that opportunity if they are willing to take the risk.

You're right Mark, a service economy is what the Chinese have. Millions of lowly paid minions standing at an assembly line sticking plastic parts together. These "jobs" that Americans whine about going abroad but are not interested in doing as they are "beneath" American worker dignity. Oddly ironic isn't it?

Other startling factors is the transformation that technology has had on traditional brick and mortar shops. E-commerce has put nearly every merchant on their heels. Store rents increase, store traffic/revenue diminishes, prices escalate. Buyers go elsewhere to buy cheaper goods delivered through the mail. And of course, entry level workers want $15/hour. Easy enough, pay fewer people to work longer and reduce your staff. Or, raise your prices and lose customers. Or replace humans with kiosks. Ah! The panacea. Except, now what about the displaced employee????

Its a job lost to technical and cultural evolution not a foreign country. What then is the answer to that riddle? Outlaw kiosks? Pay line cooks at fast food joints $30/hour to flip a burger and stuff fries into a cardboard box? There will not be sufficient taxable income to fund the government that is so overly bloated already.

All of these are symptoms of our economy, not the cause. The debt held is what drives the credit game. Credit is a death spiral, and our country is in it so deep we will NEVER escape it. All because we want to "provide more" equalizing services and goods to all citizens than be good stewards of our responsibilities.

Subprime lending is a perfect example of "good intention, terrible results". Credit extended to those who hadn't earned it, forcing a market bubble in real estate that inflated housing pricing for those same folks couldn't qualify for a loan, that they then got a loan with no equity to buy a house they couldn't afford. Priceless. What on earth could go wrong????

Sorry, but you can't blame over-paid CEOs, foreign countries or wealthy 10%-ers for the terrible choices individuals make. Folks in these circumstances brought it upon themselves out of a lust for lucre, or pure ignorance. If you don't understand math, then you should not be signing loan documents. Credit ratings are inherently opposed to financial responsibility. They are rigged to get citizens to take lines of credit they can't afford, so banks can "close" those accounts, write them off, and be reimbursed by tax payer dollars. Banks win when you choke on your debt. And too many Americans never stop to think about the consequences of their financial dealings.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline calj737

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2015, 07:21:43 PM »
BTW - I was looking originally looking for a thread on "rust" . . . anyone seen that?
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154073.0.html
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Gene

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2015, 07:22:34 PM »
That's it!  Thanks Cal!
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2015, 07:44:03 PM »
Like a true politition Cal. All the answers but non of the solutions.
If you've got it all figured out, what then is the antithesis of your economic dooms day.
You never see a motorcycle parked outside of a psychiatrist's office!

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