Topic: RE: 51% of Americans made less than 29,999.99K per year in 2014

[BPellerine]

We SHOULD build things, we SHOULD be a leader in the world economy of manufacturing but we should also realize that these changes may result in concurrent changes in how we live our life, and maybe even the motorcycles we own.  I know that's sacrilege, but we are the smartest country on the damned planet!  We can do better.

And that's the problem, despite what you keep telling yourselves, the US is nowhere near the smartest country on the damned planet, or else China wouldn't be kicking your arse. You've voted (well, some of you have voted) for governments who've allowed your corrupt, heartless CEO's to export your manufacturing offshore to reduce manufacturing costs, without exporting your workers, who are still being born, but born into economic misery.

My son brought home a 1950's era toolbox that belonged to his girlfriend's uncle, who'd recently passed. Every tool in that toolbox was made in either the US, Britain or Australia. While some of those brands still exist, I'll bet that most are now made in China. How smart is that? 

Smart if you are the CEO or stockholder of that company. Ultimately stupid because what happens when nobody here can afford to buy that junk you produce? Henry Ford was smart enough to know he needed to supply a wage where his employees could afford to buy his product.

Henry Ford was no hero mate, he also had his own private army of "strike breakers" who beat striking union workers, and surprise, surprise, no charges were ever laid.

Sure, unions are also often as corrupt as big business, we've had some big news stories in recent years about union executives who've used union members fees to live the high life, or have blackmailed construction companies for "kickbacks" to ensure that there's no expensive delays in project completion etc, but the notion that unions are the culprits for the collapse of America's industry, is just bullsh1t.

The fact is that greedy company CEO's have moved their manufacturing to developing countries like China, Bangladesh, Cambodia and India etc, where there are no unions, and the people there are paid a few dollars a month to work in the worst possible conditions.

If anyone here thinks that this should be the model for America, then it speaks volumes about their own morality. Remember, before the west started exploiting developing countries, their companies were still making huge profits while paying their own workers a decent wage. "The rich get richer, and to think anything different, is communism"................ 

I have worked in union and non union jobs and let me tell you when you do not have another set of eyes looking in on the company ,they can do whatever they like,including giving the bosses son the fast track to the top,and decide to cut wages anytime they like,if you are in a depressed area,which is where big business likes to be they can control the govt to the extent of tramping on your rights and living in fear of losing your job if you speak up.unions should not be viewed as a way to big wages but as a voice to let the rest of the world know what is going on,I lived in a non union world for 31 miserable years.the profit margin and the shareholders come first!that is why we make less,we also ship out jobs and do not charge these companies tarrifs when their products come back into the country,it should be made unprofitable for these guys to move to mexico or any other country no ifs or buts!!!my rant.billp

[faux fiddy]

I had plans to have a better income but my brothers absconded with my ability to do that.  It doesn't take money to make money, but it sure helps.

I had a chance to buy this house needing minor repairs and some junk haul off that I could have done, she sold it for $8k (I'd have given her an extra 1k). It sold within a month for $29,500. Zillow lists it at $74 just over a year later.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/5712-nw-32nd-street-OKC-Ok_rb/

I have included it and another as damages in my tortious interference claims.

[FunJimmy]

I had a chance to buy this house needing minor repairs and some junk haul off that I could have done, she sold it for $8k (I'd have given her an extra 1k). It sold within a month for $29,500. Zillow lists it at $74 just over a year later.

I only wish housing was so affordable in Vancouver.
Have you any idea how crazy expensive houses cost in this fricken city?
Seven figures!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/housing-toronto-vancouver-1.3305986

[Gene]

"the US is nowhere near the smartest country on the damned planet, or else China wouldn't be kicking your arse.

Not that this has been bothering me, it's 3 a.m. on January 1, I just got home from a gig and I obviously have nothing better to do . . . BUT a lot of the reason China is "kicking our arse" is because they have been devaluing their currency, which makes it cheaper for foreign markets to buy Chinese goods.  The (I was going to say "rat-bastards" but have now thought better of it) folks in charge of China's YUAN are able to allocate an exchange rate by the decision of the government, rather than the open exchange rate market, which is what most other countries allow to happen.  If the YUAN is cheap, other countries can buy Chinese products a hella lot cheaper, so why make 'em at home? 

This issue has been addressed but no one is in a position to say "revalue your currency or we go to war."  There may be other issues with what China is doing - building false islands in the middle of international waters for example - but the currency drives the exports.

Again, hasn't been keeping me up at night but thought it needed too be said.

And, as was stated earlier by someone, this is a very civil discussion on a very big issue.  We should be proud of ourselves - at least in this respect . . . except for Cal. (kidding!  We kid because we love . . . )

[madmtnmotors]

A lot of the reason China is "kicking our arse" is because they have been devaluing their currency, which makes it cheaper for foreign markets to buy Chinese goods.

Indeed. There are a number of forces at work, more than just one simple solution.

And, as was stated earlier by someone, this is a very civil discussion on a very big issue.  We should be proud of ourselves - at least in this respect . . . except for Cal. (kidding!  We kid because we love . . . )

Economics is a little different than politics. Sure, there are a lot of political influences on the economy, but I think the focus on economics has kept the discussion pretty straightforward and even informative. Avoiding the political aspect goes a long way towards keeping the discussion from breaking down. The rule against political threads is a good one! 

[chewbacca5000]

I tend to agree with Fun Jimmy if man made the mess man can fix it.

It does no good to point fingers at any one group of people.  Technology and Globalization has redefined the landscape of business forever and it will take time for us "humans" to catch up.

Think of it like this how many times have you went to a big box retail store and asked if they had such and such, and the sales clerk responds no, but you can order it online.  You understandably upset as you could have done that yourself.

The point is that the internet offers consumers unlimited choice and you can not expect any brick and motor retail outlet to offer the same number of choices as what can be found on the internet.

This abundance of choice extends to all areas of business and industry and if we all start seeing things through an entrepreneurial lense we call all succeed

Let me explain 15 years ago pre internet general options were the norm as people did not know any better, but not people exactly a solution tailored to their exact situation.

Pre Internet:  Personal Trainer
Now Cross Fit trainer for men 40+ with back pain

Pre Internet:  Pilates
Now Pilates for young mothers with back pain

Pre Internet:  Lawn mowing
Now Hill side lawn mowing for the Elderly

Pre Internet:  Coffee
Now 18 page hipster coffee order at Starbucks

The point is the internet has kinda of spoiled us and we want exactly what we want, for the price we want when we want it.

The easy generalist route is gone forever.  I read about a Etsy Enterpenuer who made $10,000 per month selling Scrabble tile jewelry guides during the Scrabble tile jewelry fad.

I think we as a people are starting to catch on.  As we learn to design tailor made solutions for business and consumers alike we will start to thrive.  With 7 billion brains, more knowledge in the history of man kind these problems can and must be solved.

I am trying to up my business, marketing, and sales skills as I realized my "general tech skills" are just not enough.  Those skills need to be applied to solve the problems of a specific industry if I want to keep putting food on the table.

[chewbacca5000]

Just by learning how the world has changed we can help ourselves, our friends, and our family.  If enough of us learn how to handle these challenges and help just one other person the whole world can change for the better and quickly.

The abundance of information and choice is a blessing and a curse.  The key is to learn how to be super specific and help others to do the same.  That is what I have learned from 4 weeks of non stop research 16 hours a day.  Those who succeed are skilled in The New Way and those who aren't willing to change are doomed to struggle.

You need to be 2 to 3 levels deep. If your computer has a virus who do you want Computer guy Joe or Al's expert virus removal services.  Simply open up a chat session and one of your expert virus removal specialist will clean the virus without you have to wait on hold.

The money is in being super specific.

 Forget the cirrus clowns in DC.  If you have a story or know of someone who has went super specific and found success share it.  It will help others.  Heck I will compile them all and write an E-book.

[eigenvector]

"Guys not trying to start a debate here just trying to figure things out that is all.  If anyone could tell me how to bump my pay up that would be great.  I have a 4 year college degree, 15 years in IT and have been making less than $35k for the past 6 years.

After the taxes, insurance I had about $18k to live on.  To get that money I had to give 20 to 30 hrs free time to my employer and be available 24/7/365.

I know that I need to make serious changes as I am not confident $30k in 10 years will be enough to pay for the basics.  If anyone knows how I can get up to $60k here in Syracuse, NY it would be appreciated."

I was in IT for a while, about 10 years.  I transferred out after the dot-com bubble because I saw the writing on the wall.  The corporations got severely burned by those days - the inflated IT wages, the unstable programmer pool, the wildly changing technology.  The IT industry smelled blood/money and the corporations got hit - they aren't letting the IT folks forget about it either.  I jumped ship to engineering and have seen the corrosive effect that the retribution companies are taking against the IT folks is having.  Engineering development and support is suffering just as much as the IT people are because ultimately engineering and IT go hand-in-hand.  Execs just don't see/understand that.

I'd rather be back in sys ad, doing what I love to do - but there's no money in it anymore.  Too many Indian companies willing to take over the work for way less than we would ask.  And they do an excellent job too.

In a nutshell - you're still feeling the effects of the Dot-Com bubble bursting. 

[chewbacca5000]

Thanks eigenvector.  That is very helpful.  I recently talked to two different engineers and one is a soil engineer, and the other an environmental engineer.  Both told me that the obvious engineering jobs like electrical and mechanical pay less as lots of students enter those programs.

What kind of engineering do you do?

[Redline it]

Bill/Wilbur - my point on unions is the modern unions. Time was they were needed and important. That time passed and they have morphed into corrupt oligarchs that screw the members, extort their contractors, and enrich only themselves.

I can't argue against the idea that labor unions have often been their own worst enemy. Many of the misguided roadblocks designed to restrict the influence of labor unions have contributed to, albeit not exclusively, the problem.

For instance, once closed shops were outlawed, and "right to work (for less)" laws were implemented, local unions were left with few tools to even be able to police their own members. How can an organization enforce working rules (including conduct and performance) on its own members, when that member can simply decide not to participate within that organization, yet continue to work at the same job, with the same employer, with nearly the same contractual benefits?

I will agree, there is no easy (if any) answer. Corporate greed is a constant and will not go away. I truly believe ABC's "Made In USA" campaign has contributed in a small way to the current economic recovery, even if only to educate John Q. Public about part of what is going wrong.

Of course "Made In USA" sounds empty when stated on a support forum for imported machines!   

Pensions are how they can influence a union member to follow the by laws, of what they paid for. I look at the agreement as a service way more than a policing. And it's also similar to our current state of eroding economy in the U.S. but gets weirder every way, by retiring and pulling a pension, the applicant can not work anywhere in the world for a non union contractor performing within the scope of the tools he used while developing the pension credits. If it's in a right to work state or in your hometown, you get busted, you get cut off of the pension benefits. So one would not want that after so much contribution. I am guilty like maybe everyone here, of selecting the cheaper of the tools or products at times from international imports. That, even it it's from walmart is the fuel to lead the way for our decedents to have a potential collapsed economy, so value the pension of ours, don't want to loose that, even though it's not going to be worth anything here in a country we don't care about, by saving 50 cents or 5 dollars on a sell that's made somewhere else. And I'm not sure if the Union is investing in other world markets or not? It was fun while it lasted. Think I'm gonna put the stock pipe on today. And take a ride.

[rb550four]

I was reading the part of "Made In The USA" sounds empty when stated on a support forum for imported machines.   Well, they are Classic imported machines.
  I remember seeing an interview with Lee Iacocca and the classic Mustang. He was upset because folks that loved them, rebuilt them, and drove them. He said that this behavior wasn't helping the car market and it was basically a waste ,Stop rebuilding those old cars,buy a new one he said.
  The only American motorcycle that I could be interested in playing with is the Indian...out of most of our price ranges though...mine too. I already did the Mustang thing...so what, it's a classic too.
 "made in the USA still means allot to me , even though I have some imported bikes. We have a retail store, we've been battling the Walmart cheap imported stuff for years. The realization is that the Chinese goods are of a lesser quality, and are made at slave wages shouldn't be considered a good thing.
 Our store won't compete with that , no store can, so we opted to stick with better quality goods that would outlast the imports, some goods are made right here in the USA and we proudly sell it as that. Other foreign countries also produce nice products, like South America and some countries in Africa where there are no factories ,just communities that have been making handmade goods for generations , and have traditionally been taken advantage of ...We sell allot of fair trade products, where these people can make a living wage for their product. Sure it's a little more than a machine produced products. but not that much more, and real people are being treated fairly for their efforts. Fair trade products and Made in USA have  been welcomed by our shoppers for years. It still means something to us...even in a jerk water town in depressed upstate N.Y.
  I would love to see us become a producing nation again, with real products, made by people at a fair living wages. I would like to know that our GNP is more than just cyber bs and insurance policies. Something tangible and real, the type of things we would be proud to produce. Nice dream ,right?
  Until then , we'll sell all the fair trade and US made products that will sell here (we're not a cyber store, we're brick and mortar,literally). And I'll always be proud to own a "classic import" motorcycle or a classic Mustang whenever I can.
 We're just doing the best we can too, and hoping to help some others along the way, every little bit helps right? I agree, there are no easy answers.

[chewbacca5000]

I have been to rb550four store and is it is very nice.  Like an old general store you would see in the movies.  I think that is great you offer fair trade goods.  We all need to do our part and start thinking about people above profit.

I am all for business, people and fair play, and feel all three are necessary for a health economy.

[BPellerine]

I have been to rb550four store and is it is very nice.  Like an old general store you would see in the movies.  I think that is great you offer fair trade goods.  We all need to do our part and start thinking about people above profit.

I am all for business, people and fair play, and feel all three are necessary for a health economy.

+1 billp

[Terry in Australia]

"the US is nowhere near the smartest country on the damned planet, or else China wouldn't be kicking your arse.

Not that this has been bothering me.............

Yes it has, or you wouldn't have quoted it. Sure, China can manipulate their economy, just as the US has on many occasions. 12 months ago, the Aussie dollar was $1.10 US, which was great for me as an occasional buyer of American goods, but now, for reasons beyond my comprehension, it's now only worth 0.71 US? Has the US economy suddenly leapt forward? Has the Australian economy crashed? Nope, nothing much has changed, except the exchange rate.

China is way smarter than America, or Australia, or anywhere else, because our dumbarse western countries have allowed China to pick up all of our manufacturing industry (and profits) at the expense of our countries now having an excess of human beings that we the tax payers of the world have to now maintain, because greedy company CEO's and incompetent, corrupt governments have handed China a free ride to become the worlds largest economy.

Don't even talk about going to war with China, or you'll know what an arse kicking is really all about, they have 4 times the population of the US, the largest military complex in the world, and enough financial reserves to last several world wars. And we gave it to them...................   

[FunJimmy]

Yes it has, or you wouldn't have quoted it. Sure, China can manipulate their economy, just as the US has on many occasions. 12 months ago, the Aussie dollar was $1.10 US, which was great for me as an occasional buyer of American goods, but now, for reasons beyond my comprehension, it's now only worth 0.71 US? Has the US economy suddenly leapt forward? Has the Australian economy crashed? Nope, nothing much has changed, except the exchange rate.

China is way smarter than America, or Australia, or anywhere else, because our dumbarse western countries have allowed China to pick up all of our manufacturing industry (and profits) at the expense of our countries now having an excess of human beings that we the tax payers of the world have to now maintain, because greedy company CEO's and incompetent, corrupt governments have handed China a free ride to become the worlds largest economy.

Don't even talk about going to war with China, or you'll know what an arse kicking is really all about, they have 4 times the population of the US, the largest military complex in the world, and enough financial reserves to last several world wars. And we gave it to them................... 

Pretty hard to argue with that!
We continue to give it to them everyday.

We sell our minerals, and recourses at cheap commodity prices while they preserve theirs. Who do you think is going to control the globe when resource depletion occurs?
The Western world is so short sighted and greedy that we can't see the forest through the trees.

[scottly]

China is way smarter than America, or Australia, or anywhere else, because our dumbarse western countries have allowed China to pick up all of our manufacturing industry (and profits) at the expense of our countries

It's only been a few decades when the same things were being said about Japan. In the '60s, Japan was the king of the transistor radio; we gave it to them after the war. RCA Victor didn't want to mess with piddly radios, and set up JVC: Japan Victor Co. By the start of the '70s, the CB750 crushed the floundering British motorcycle industry, and by the '80's Harley felt so threatened by the Japanese competition that they convinced the US government to levy a tariff on any import over 750cc. This really pissed me off, as the price of a new 750 Interceptor jumped $1000 overnight.

[Terry in Australia]

Yep, and rightly so Scott. When Ronny Raygun introduced tariffs to protect Harley Davidson, it protected American jobs and it protected American families. Honda built a factory in the US to build Goldwings to avoid these tariffs, and this provided more jobs for American families, and kept some of Honda's profits in America.

Sadly, when Japan's economy started to falter a few years ago Honda closed that factory and moved it back to Japan to look after Japanese families. Harley's still providing jobs for American workers, and yet so many Americans refuse to support an American company that provides well paid jobs for American families. It boggles my mind.............

[madmtnmotors]

  The only American motorcycle that I could be interested in playing with is the Indian...out of most of our price ranges though...mine too. 

Actually, the Indian Scout at $11,000 is one of the first American made bikes that has really got my attention. For 72 months @ %1.99 is right at $160/mo... 

Of course, then I'm deeper into the "living on debt" described by Cal! 

The rest of your post was also well put. 

[rb550four]

  When the new Indians came out I almost pissed my pants, what a lovely machine I thought , these should sell like Harleys to those that aren't that fond of Harleys... Then they were looking for dealers too, omg! So I checked out the product line, the extra trade name stuff to support  the investment.... I thought the gap was too wide to invest. No reasoning could get me past the idea of parts dept inventory investment,including trained mechanic's. The showroom alone with the extra was weak at best and seasonal sales alone wouldn't support the the overhead.
  I really think that they should have retooled at the start, to offer exact replacement parts and modifications for a late 50's Indian model plus the completed new / old model  in addition to the new product line. That in itself could make the whole parts dept., mechanics,and dealership a worthwhile investment package with a real future. But, they didn't ,and I can only see the new Indian go the way of Buell. Nice bikes, small product line, not enough press, and a really tight market, no payback on the dealer investment. Too bad.
 Every now and then I'll see one parked on the street in more affluent towns and drool all over the sidewalk until my wife drags me away.

[FunJimmy]

  When the new Indians came out I almost pissed my pants, what a lovely machine I thought , these should sell like Harleys to those that aren't that fond of Harleys... Then they were looking for dealers too, omg! So I checked out the product line, the extra trade name stuff to support  the investment.... I thought the gap was too wide to invest. No reasoning could get me past the idea of parts dept inventory investment,including trained mechanic's. The showroom alone with the extra was weak at best and seasonal sales alone wouldn't support the the overhead.
  I really think that they should have retooled at the start, to offer exact replacement parts and modifications for a late 50's Indian model plus the completed new / old model  in addition to the new product line. That in itself could make the whole parts dept., mechanics,and dealership a worthwhile investment package with a real future. But, they didn't ,and I can only see the new Indian go the way of Buell. Nice bikes, small product line, not enough press, and a really tight market, no payback on the dealer investment. Too bad.
 Every now and then I'll see one parked on the street in more affluent towns and drool all over the sidewalk until my wife drags me away.

Do you think John Bloor didn't encounter sceptics on his way to reviving the Triumph brand?
Look where they are today. You're right, it takes a lot more than just building a Harley clone to compete in the cruiser market. That market is over saturated and market gains come at the expense of the established. A difficult challenge at best so margins suffer and success is sketchy.

American manufactures need to be innovative, progressive and competitive to compete.
Unfortuanatly Harley killed Buell instead of innovating and securing their future.

[Gene]

"the US is nowhere near the smartest country on the damned planet, or else China wouldn't be kicking your arse.
Not that this has been bothering me.............

Sure, China can manipulate their economy, just as the US has on many occasions.

I can't figure out how to do quotes and respond, but here goes.  Terry, seriously, this is just my opinion and experience, hope to hell no one is taking this personally.

The USD floats on open market rates.  Period.

"12 months ago, the Aussie dollar was $1.10 US, which was great for me as an occasional buyer of American goods, but now, for reasons beyond my comprehension, it's now only worth 0.71 US? Has the US economy suddenly leapt forward? Has the Australian economy crashed? Nope, nothing much has changed, except the exchange rate."

No, the factors in place have little to do with the general economy and more to do with which currency is tied (or pegged, in some instances) to which OTHER currency. Truth is, AUS exports are down, there are some rumblings about the asian market, and no one is willing to place any strength in a strong AUD anytime soon.  It has to do more with trading the currency than it does with any real basis - another issue and a problem to be dealt with by people greater then ourselves.

 
"China is way smarter than America, or Australia, or anywhere else, because our dumbarse western countries have allowed China to pick up all of our manufacturing industry (and profits) at the expense of our countries now having an excess of human beings that we the tax payers of the world have to now maintain, because greedy company CEO's and incompetent, corrupt governments have handed China a free ride to become the worlds largest economy."

Okay, I disagree with the way you say it, but you're not wrong.  We have allowed China to become a big player in the market - encouraged it even.  If I were a union organizer I would be hanging my hat in China right now cuz it ain't long before those folks go "Wait, F You, we're working our asses off for nothing?"  At least I hope that.

"Don't even talk about going to war with China"

Dude - no effin way.  I hope to hell we learned our lesson in Vietnam.  (from "The Princess Bride") -

"You've already committed one of the most classic blunders!"

"What's that?"

"Well, the first is to never start a land war in Asia, . . . "

[madmtnmotors]

  When the new Indians came out I almost pissed my pants, what a lovely machine I thought , these should sell like Harleys to those that aren't that fond of Harleys... Then they were looking for dealers too, omg! So I checked out the product line, the extra trade name stuff to support  the investment.... I thought the gap was too wide to invest. No reasoning could get me past the idea of parts dept inventory investment, including trained mechanic's. The showroom alone with the extra was weak at best and seasonal sales alone wouldn't support the overhead.
  I really think that they should have retooled at the start, to offer exact replacement parts and modifications for a late 50's Indian model plus the completed new / old model  in addition to the new product line. That in itself could make the whole parts dept., mechanics, and dealership a worthwhile investment package with a real future. But, they didn't ,and I can only see the new Indian go the way of Buell. Nice bikes, small product line, not enough press, and a really tight market, no payback on the dealer investment. Too bad.
 Every now and then I'll see one parked on the street in more affluent towns and drool all over the sidewalk until my wife drags me away.

Thanks for the insight from a potential dealer's perspective. 

[madmtnmotors]

We have allowed China to become a big player in the market - encouraged it even.

    China was a natural, and very lucrative home to heavy industry, with what seems to be an almost endless source of cheap, and in many cases underage, labor. Throw in the total lack of environmental controls, the artificially undervalued Chinese currency, and I don't think anyone could impose enough tariffs to offset these actuarial gains. Have you seen the air in China's industrial cities? The occupants can't even see the city skyline on most days, which I am afraid could doom one or more generations of Chinese people to an early demise. 

No way we can compete with that, other than doing our best to exert our influence with our wallets by trying to source homemade products when we can.

If I were a union organizer I would be hanging my hat in China right now cuz it ain't long before those folks go "Wait, F You, we're working our asses off for nothing?"  At least I hope that.

I would hope so too, but I'm sure any union organizers would be quickly silenced, either thrown in the deepest dungeon, or a not so deep hole, never to be heard from again. I would expect any unionizing movement in China would be dealt with such a heavy hand that it would make the early union struggles here in the USA look like nothing more than a hangnail...     

[754]

What Triumph did that Indian has not....
 Designed and sold several modern motorcycles that worked and did not rely on sucking up support off the original bikes image.. Well they have the twins, but on closer look they are an aberration of the original... Not the nicest looks on that motor..
 So yes they appealed to a wider market than the retro throwback lets live off the originals cachet type bikes..

[Terry in Australia]

John Bloor sourced the new Triumph's factory equipment from Japan, and built bikes that sports bike riders would want to ride. Pretty soon though, he realised that not all motorcyclists wanted to ride sports bikes, so he reintroduced the venerable Bonneville, which became an instant success, and stole sales from Harley's Sportster line.

Most people (well not Frank obviously) accepted that Triumph had to take the  Bonneville into the 21st century, which meant adding some bulk. The original Bonneville was a descendant of Edward Turners 500 cc Speed Twin, so boring and stroking it out to 750 cc's added to it's already unreliable nature, calling for a total redesign.

Take a look at the new Norton's, the engine castings are much bulkier than their oil distributing ancestors. Not an aberration, just evolution of a theme. Cheers, Terry.