Author Topic: Question about welding  (Read 5394 times)

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Offline mycoal

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Question about welding
« on: January 14, 2016, 12:43:20 PM »
Disclaimer: Let me start off by saying that I'm not looking to do underwater welding for nasa. I don't give a decent sized #$%* about cosmetics either. My welds can look horrific and I won't toss and turn at night about it. I'm not doing anything remotely structural.

Been looking for a welder 99% for fun and 1% because my muffler has 3 pinky sized holes, and everytime I find one in my budget there's some post or guy telling me to save up just a few hundred more for a better one. Then I decide on spending $300 and someone else is telling me that I need to save up $200 more. Next thing you know I'm an idiot for not buying a $1600 Miller that can do 120/220.

The truth is I just want to buy a $100 Harbor freight 90amp mig welder and patch a few tiny holes in my exhausts muffler. I'll probably throw the exhaust away anyway but I really would like to squeeze 6 months, maybe even a year out of it. It's actually in really solid shape. I've tried punching more holes in it and can't. I've grinded around the holes and hit clean metal. The rusting is minimal.

If I took it to a muffler shop I'm going to get ass raped. If I ask someone on Craigslist to do it I'm gunna get ass raped. I'd rather have a new toy to play with. Worst case I'll return it if it can't do what I need it to do.

That being said the metal is very thin and I don't weld so I don't know if it will work or not. I've watched youtube videos of people welding thin metal with a harbor freight 90amp welder and they say its doable. But I want to know if anyone here has patched up a stock cb750 muffler with a 90amp harbor freight welder. I figured I'd use washers or cut pieces off of a scrap cb750 muffler I've got out back.

I understand they've upgraded the model and the stock wire that comes with it isn't that bad. I'll still replace it if it sucks tho. Just not looking to buy a $500 Hobart or $1600 miller if a $100 Harbor freight mig welder can do the job. I don't mind practicing.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 12:45:56 PM by mycoal »
1978 CB750K with 1977 GL1000 front end

Offline DohcBikes

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 01:03:31 PM »
I put this little ditty together on another forum:

Although welding is not my specialty, I weld a lot. A thread in the projects forum prompted me to give my humble advice on using the 90 amp Harbor Freight welder that many people end up buying for a first machine.

These tips are in no particular order, and some are more important than others. This is meant as a guide to hopefully give you a better chance of having decent useable welds the first time you try. Read it from the bottom if you want, it says the same thing but with some faint satanic ramblings if you listen real close. Oh wait thats my Ozzy album.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 90 amp harbor freight welder is a good purchase either way. It actually has a 125amp max rating, and the rated 20% duty cycle is far below what it will actually handle. Also it is a DCEN current to the torch as opposed to AC. This is good.

I must preclude my suggestions for better welds with a stern 'you shouldn't learn on a bike'. Practice on some other #$%*. Like a quad, or a Dodge. Please.

Sleeve and plug weld all tube joints. Search the welding forums to learn what this means, and don't ever ever skip these steps. You are NOT a welder, so you need to add a level of safety, and sleeving and plug welding is the way to do it.

Fit your pieces correctly. There should be virtually no air gaps between properly fitted pieces. This means trial and error, or more math than I am willing to do, so often trial and error. An experienced welder can bend this rule, but an experienced welder is also less likely to have poorly fitted pieces in the first place.

Throw your harbor freight wire in the trash. Go buy some Lincoln wire from a place that sells a lot. The longer wire sits, the more moisture can attack it.

Clean the area to be welded to a point where you wonder 'can it be TOO clean? No, it can't. Neither can the piece of metal that your ground is attached to, which will by the way be located as close to the weld as possible so the current stays consistent.

Grind the ends of the pipe at an angle, so that when the two pieces meet, it creates a 'v' to weld into. And since you took my advice and sleeved the joint, this will allow enough penetration to reach the sleeve as well. If you did it right.

I used to have one of these. I added a ground clamp so that I could attach one to each side of the weld. I am not an electrical engineer but I can tell you it worked much better after that mod. I also replaced the puny little power cord with a much heavier gauge wire. The last thing i did was eliminate the low power circuit that was only good for bodywork then rewired the high power circuit to see less resistance by eliminating the switch.

I once welded an entire custom model t chassis with that welder. The car sports a healthy 350 and has been ripping the track for over five years now so I'll call it a success.

Never kink the torch. It should be as untwisted as possible to allow the wire to feed consistently.

Do not use an extension cord with this welder, the performance will suffer greatly. Unless of course you have a very large gauge 110v ex. Cord, and most do not.

Get an auto dark mask from HF as well. They kick ass for the price, my latest one is an obvious upgrade over the last model. This tool is irreplaceable in respect to allowing hands free operation for the duration of your welding procedure.

If you want nice looking welds, you have to look into the weld puddle. This in my opinion is what separates good welders from bad. Its kinda like picking your head up before a golf shot, bad form. Yet many just look AT, not INTO, the puddle.

Never quench welds on mild steel with water. Let it cool on its own.

If you stop on the middle of a weld (try not to) you should clean the weld before beginning again. With experience this rule can be bent, but I don't recommend it.

Heating the area to be welded before you start welding will almost always benefit the final product.

Don't lead your wire too far out. Keep the tip of your torch close to the workpiece.

Fire is hot. Hot metal is hot. Hot stuff will burn you. Melted metal will burn into you. Melted metal will fall, and burn anything under it.

Cover any area on the bike you dont want burned with welding blankets or damp towels. Have a fire extinguisher handy. If this is not possible, at least do this:

Drill a small hole into the cap of a plastic liter pop bottle. Fill it with water. Squirt your buddy in the face with it to make sure it works. Put out fires with it.

Thats enough for now maybe i'll add more but im real lazy so probably not. There's more, but that'll confuse you enough to get lucky. Just like in the bedroom.

Feel free to add experienced (as in, have used the machine in question) info.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 01:08:23 PM by DohcBikes »
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Offline mycoal

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 01:21:20 PM »
Bless you sir. I have heard that the new welders don't switch from AC to DC anymore so splatter has been reduced, along with the advice to replace the wire with a better brand. Will give it a go. Something I just noticed is that the manual says that its capacity is 18 gauge, anyone know if thats the thickness of the muffler on these bikes?

Either way great list of advice, very encouraging and clear.
1978 CB750K with 1977 GL1000 front end

Offline DohcBikes

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 02:00:22 PM »
Do problem and just remember, that welder is not a MIG welder, it is simly a flux cored wire feed welder. It does not have a gas hookup. Sounds to me like it will still fit your application.
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Offline 754

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2016, 02:07:32 PM »
Muffler is thin and easy to burn thru.. I would suggest trying to bond a patch on..ma be easier and look nicer..
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Offline mycoal

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2016, 02:11:44 PM »
Muffler is thin and easy to burn thru.. I would suggest trying to bond a patch on..ma be easier and look nicer..

Out of curiosity what bond would you use? I think jbweld is rated for 500 degrees. Some posts say it blows right out after a few days/weeks, other people say it's fine. I'm guessing super high temp silicon and soup cans?
1978 CB750K with 1977 GL1000 front end

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2016, 02:18:03 PM »
I recently purchased the Eastwood MIG 135.
http://www.eastwood.com/mig-welder-110vac-135a-output.html 
I compared it to the Lincoln 140 and the Hobart 140 and it compares favorably with both of those but at much less cost.  I got mine for $249 when they were on sale prior to Christmas but they're still on sale at $279 right now with free shipping.

It will do flux core welding or MIG welding.  It does come with the hoses and regulators but does not come with the tank for shielding gas.  However, what I found out is that almost all of the companies around Atlanta that supply the gas do not fill the bottles anyway.  They treat it like propane purchases and you swap your tank out for a filled one.  So I just purchased a tank from the place where I intend to do business and I'll take it back there and pay for a refill by dropping off that empty tank and picking up a filled one when I need to do so.
Ron

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Offline 754

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2016, 02:21:53 PM »
I would try epoxy or JB.. Try to put a piece of stainless on it , if you can find some..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2016, 03:04:09 PM »
I had a kid from a welding school weld my hoop on and other parts for $40. That's before I got my own welder.

If Frank recommends epoxy or JB Weld, though, I'd try that first.

Offline firebane

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2016, 03:10:27 PM »
A decent 110v welder with flux/gas can weld up lots of hobby stuff just learn how to use it.

I picked up a Hobart 140 110v for $20k and it's been a great little welder.

Offline calj737

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2016, 03:14:05 PM »
I picked up a Hobart 140 110v for $20k and it's been a great little welder.
I how that's a typo! For $20k you could have bought a Miller Pipe Pro powered by an Isuzu diesel...  ;D
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Offline firebane

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2016, 03:18:31 PM »
I picked up a Hobart 140 110v for $20k and it's been a great little welder.
I how that's a typo! For $20k you could have bought a Miller Pipe Pro powered by an Isuzu diesel...  ;D

damn phone lol! $200

Offline 754

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2016, 06:19:19 PM »
I am not saying i did it , but worth a try.. Not sure how hot the outer shell of the pipe gets.
 
 What i was trying to do is dissuade him from trying to learn on a highly visible part that was very thin and a bit tricky to weld...ie not end up with an even bigger mess than he has now..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Wingnut74

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2016, 06:34:57 PM »
I got that same HF welder for christmas last year and never welded before that. its awesome what you can do with it. Did seat hoops with plugs and a battery box, but when i tried welding steel that was as thin as exhaust metal I burned through it very easily, a better welder could maybe do it but not me.
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Offline mycoal

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2016, 08:00:39 PM »
I got that same HF welder for christmas last year and never welded before that. its awesome what you can do with it. Did seat hoops with plugs and a battery box, but when i tried welding steel that was as thin as exhaust metal I burned through it very easily, a better welder could maybe do it but not me.

Did you try welding continuously on it or small pulsing welds this this guy:
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Offline firebane

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 05:04:05 AM »
I got that same HF welder for christmas last year and never welded before that. its awesome what you can do with it. Did seat hoops with plugs and a battery box, but when i tried welding steel that was as thin as exhaust metal I burned through it very easily, a better welder could maybe do it but not me.

To weld GOOD with thin wall pipe you need to use gas. If you don't use gas your best way of doing it is spot welds. It takes a much longer time but you have less change of burning through the pipe.

Heat setting and speed also play a big role. For thin pipe you want a hottish setting with a quick wire feed. A slow wire feed on thin tubing will burn through too.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2016, 05:13:51 AM »
What i was trying to do is dissuade him from trying to learn on a highly visible part that was very thin and a bit tricky to weld...ie not end up with an even bigger mess than he has now..

I agree with this completely.  Welding thin sheet metal is tricky and shouldn't be your first learning experience with welding.  Especially with that welder.  (yes I've owned one, briefly)

Another thing to keep in mind in all of this is that once you finish welding, you're going to have the weld to be ground down, plus areas of heat-discolored metal to deal with.  You can sand that discoloration back off, but now you've got large spots of bare metal to protect.  So, either exhaust paint, or re-chrome.  You should count on the repaired areas being twice the size if your original holes, based on their stated size.

You may not get the results you're hoping for, is what I'm getting at.

mystic_1
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Offline DohcBikes

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2016, 05:21:14 AM »
I am not saying i did it , but worth a try.. Not sure how hot the outer shell of the pipe gets.
 
 What i was trying to do is dissuade him from trying to learn on a highly visible part that was very thin and a bit tricky to weld...ie not end up with an even bigger mess than he has now..
Didn't you read my tips? It clearly advises him to practice on some junk.

I can close a thumb sized hole in 16 gauge steel.
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Offline calj737

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 05:32:20 AM »
Learning to weld by yourself is a fools errand. YouTube is one-way information. It does not look over your shoulder and guide you through correcting your mistakes, advising on your settings, etc. Can people buy a welder and make 2 pieces of metal stick together? Sure. But for anything structural (this application of your pipe is not) you should ONLY seek a qualified welder.

Welds can look pretty and be crap. Welds can be good and look crappy. But competent welders only make good welds that look good too. MIG is the easiest method to make look good, but its also very deceiving about whether its structurally sound. Adjusting wire speed and heat to get the correct penetration is an art, not a science.

As has been said, welding thin wall tubing is incredibly tricky. You will burn holes through it before you achieve fusing the two metals together as a new, DIY welder. OR, you will make spot welds that don't fuse the metals as a precaution against burning through. This is not because you are incompetent or an idiot, its because its very hard to do. Especially as a self-taught welder with this type of gear.

I can weld. But I've been taught by someone who is a certified Process Pipe welder who makes his living doing it on Nuclear pipe, X-rayed work. And it took me about 2 years of practice before I became competent at it. Even now, he welds my really important stuff because his knowledge and experience are required.

And welding rusty, corroded metal is even harder. Clean it up, absolutely. But you are still left with metal that is thin, compromised, and won't take the heat you apply to it. I had to have my buddy (mentioned above) TIG up my exhaust because despite all my efforts, I could not prevent burning it out, and that was with shielded gas and a foot pedal. He changed wire size, and changed the amps, and presto! YouTube can't do that for you-
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Question about welding
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 05:34:54 AM »
I don't think it would be too hard. I'm a new welder and I butt welded 18 gauge for my seat hump and ground it down fairly flat. But I had 1/4" round bar behind the seam. As the OP said, it's kind of a temporary fix until he gets a new muffler.

Any way to get some backing material in there?




Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2016, 06:22:41 AM »
I have a snap-on mm140sl (with spool gun), and a Lincoln weld-pack 3500hd (135amps) that I got at home depot when my snap-on ate some diodes in the middle of a project 2 months after purchase. I do a good amount of welding, and I'll tell you right now I like my Lincoln over the snap-on any day of the week. I have never been able to get a great looking weld with the snap-on. At work I use a Millermatic Vintage 220v. Also, a great unit but overkill for anything you're going to do in the garage. Even with the little Lincoln 120v cranked up makes very nice welds with good penetration on thick material, and it was about 500$ as opposed to the 2000$ I spent on the snap-on. I have run 308lsi wire and welded nice pieces of stainless steel together. (Make sure you use the right gas.) I will never buy a snap-on welder again, ever. Now, the snap-on plasma cutter I have is a different story. That's a great product, if only my hands were steady.

For anyone who doesn't know, in street racing culture there is something called a "Lincoln locker". Basically you open up the diff cover and weld the spider gears together. I've seen this done with flux cored wire and an entry level Lincoln welder and have it hold indefinitely.
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Offline Wingnut74

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2016, 06:26:13 AM »
continuous,  like a dope
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2016, 06:31:40 AM »
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Offline DohcBikes

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2016, 07:12:24 AM »
For anyone who doesn't know, in street racing culture there is something called a "Lincoln locker". Basically you open up the diff cover and weld the spider gears together. I've seen this done with flux cored wire and an entry level Lincoln welder and have it hold indefinitely.
They've been doing this in all kinds of racing since before you were a twinkle in the universe.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Question about welding
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 07:40:18 AM »
For anyone who doesn't know, in street racing culture there is something called a "Lincoln locker". Basically you open up the diff cover and weld the spider gears together. I've seen this done with flux cored wire and an entry level Lincoln welder and have it hold indefinitely.
They've been doing this in all kinds of racing since before you were a twinkle in the universe.

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