Poll

How long did you ride your longest-lasting chain?

4,000 miles / 6,500 Km
0 (0%)
8,000 miles / 13,000 Km
4 (23.5%)
10,000 miles / 16,000 Km
4 (23.5%)
20,000 miles / 32,000 Km
6 (35.3%)
30,000 miles or longer / 48,000 Km
3 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Your chain life?  (Read 6607 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Your chain life?
« on: January 14, 2016, 07:21:19 pm »
Here's the premise ("rules?") of this post, so it doesn't turn into an oil thread:
1. This is about a chain YOU HAVE INSTALLED AND REMOVED over a long period of time.
2. If you measured the 'stretch' at removal (like I do, because of my OCD...), list it here. The value can be either in "links" or "inches" or "cm" or "percentage" (like, the standard 530 size, 100-link chain stretches 1% for 1 link, or 5/8" (.625") aka 1.6cm.
3. List the brand of chain (and model, if it has one) and note whether it was O-ring or not.

Most of you who have my book know what I use and how long they last, so I won't [re]bore you with that here...
:D

I hope this can become a guide for "chain shoppers" on the forum?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2016, 12:52:16 am »
So are we meant to have measured the length of the chain when it was brand new before it was fitted? Otherwise I am not sure how much you would know it had stretched by.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 01:55:41 am »
Unless everyone that responds maintains their chains as instructed on the box, this is just about useless, someone could buy the best chain and neglect it and get 5000miles, the same chain could get 30,000 miles if looked after. If you want to know which chains are the best, look at their tensile rating and buy one with a high tensile rating.... ;)
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Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 03:13:20 am »
Lets not be a killjoy here. Perhaps the highest tensile rated ones sap power (yes I have the book). Also have a DID non o ring chain on mine. Just did not measure the length before I put it on.
It could be a very worthwhile thread to compare things like no maintenence vs high maintenence practices. Or brand vs brand, o-ring vs non o-ring. etc.
Hardest thing I find with adjusting my chain is that it will be in the correct range in one spot but when you rotate the wheel it is as tight as the proverbial. Also it is meant to have so much slack (or up and down movement) but how much pressure is one supposed to use to measure that slack?

Offline PeWe

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 03:18:56 am »
I killed the chains rather quick due to the weather. Plenty of rain made the chain dry asap, must be lubricated very often.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 05:35:35 am »
I pulled Tsubaki Omega (o-ring) from my K0 when I took it apart, it had 25 000 miles on it and it was stretched less than 1% if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 05:40:31 am by 70CB750 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 04:19:29 pm »
Lets not be a killjoy here. Perhaps the highest tensile rated ones sap power (yes I have the book). Also have a DID non o ring chain on mine. Just did not measure the length before I put it on.
It could be a very worthwhile thread to compare things like no maintenence vs high maintenence practices. Or brand vs brand, o-ring vs non o-ring. etc.
Hardest thing I find with adjusting my chain is that it will be in the correct range in one spot but when you rotate the wheel it is as tight as the proverbial. Also it is meant to have so much slack (or up and down movement) but how much pressure is one supposed to use to measure that slack?

Not trying to be a killjoy Moe, just pointing out the obvious mate,  In my opinion, there are far to many variables for this to be an accurate account, i'm always interested in an accurate diagnosis of anything motorcycle related {I'm OCD too 8)}.. ;) High tensile chains are on every performance bike on the market, if you are worried about maybe 1or 2 HP, I think thats being just a little to anal retentive compared to the advantages of a good chain, high tensile doesn't equal a heavy chain.. ;D  I'll always buy modern O or X ring chains in a high tensile, they are so much better than any of the old chains, period. If you want power sapping chains look no further than the 630 shod K7/K8, F2/F3...
If your chain is right on one side and loose on the other, as in rotate the wheel 180 and its tighter on one side than the other, you have a stretched chain, I bet you I could hear that as you rode past.. The reason I buy good quality chains is because I've NEVER had a problem with them.   If everyone was as diligent {OCD ;D} as Hondaman it would be an excellent comparison...  Compare away... ;D
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 05:17:56 pm »
already breaking the post rules...but I have found that a good condition 630 robs much less power than an effed up 530, and the 630 chains last a really LONG time.  I just removed my F3's original chain at 26,000 miles.  The chain adjusters were right on the borderline between the good zone and the worn out zone as per the markings on the F3 adjuster.  Very little, if any, maintenance plus blatant abuse as per wheelies and burnouts and much wet weather.  O-rings still intact.  Just had several tight spots and the front sprocket was starting to get hooked.  In general though, I get about 12-18000 miles out of Parts Unlimited 530 o-ring chain, and I am far from anal about cleaning and maintenence.  In my experience, standard chain feels great when it is clean and lubed, but get caught in the rain for an hour or two and they are never the same.
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Offline Hondell

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 05:49:31 pm »
Damn cheap DID chain only lasted 15 miles on my dragbike............
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2016, 06:03:51 pm »
Damn cheap DID chain only lasted 15 miles on my dragbike............
Um, yep, done that, too...on a recent 750 build I did, I installed a DID as the only chain I had that day because I had to ride the bike to my house (they were moving the shop!). In the ensuing 18-mile ride, it went from no slack to over 2" vertical slack at the center of the chain. The chain was not greased, just oiled (per DID's practice). Their chains have worn too fast for me, so I don't use them.

An 'engineering note' here: Tensile Strength is a good comparison for chain LOADS, but not necessarily for chain WEAR. The chains with the highest tensile load ratings are made for slow-moving, non-reciprocating motions, like for dragging heavy things. Those type of chains have large inner pins and very strong sideplates to support them, which means they are difficult to lube: the lube will squish out during the "pull" action. This s where lighter chains excel: they will actually distort their sideplates a bit, misaligning the pin-to-inner-roller joint, thus making a slight suction moment to pull in any available nearby oil (and/or grit...). The 'dream chain' lies somewhere between these.

The "Chain Stretch" can be most easily measured by simply stretching out the old chain and measuring it, then by counting the links and multiplying by their size you obtain the original length. Just subtract the 'new' number from the 'old' number, then divide this difference by the original length. Then multiply this tiny number by 100 to get "percent stretch".

Most chain builders recommend no  more than 2% stretch be allowed, lest it start to damage the sprockets.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Hondell

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2016, 06:47:28 pm »
Sorry just meant to point out that the parameters are too variable (unless you use a standard set up) to gain any real credible data. I got 60 odd passes on a 135 HP bike in the 70's and you wore out supposedly the same chain driving home.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2016, 06:51:36 pm »
Damn cheap DID chain only lasted 15 miles on my dragbike............
An 'engineering note' here: Tensile Strength is a good comparison for chain LOADS, but not necessarily for chain WEAR. The chains with the highest tensile load ratings are made for slow-moving, non-reciprocating motions, like for dragging heavy things.

That seems not to be the case with motorcycle drive chains Mark, or HD primary chains for that matter, the highest tensile strength is for the strongest motorcycle chains for the highest HP out put. All the best motorcycle chains are around 10,000lbs tensile strength or more, and are rated at over 200HP..... the big 630 Drag chains from EK have a 30,000lb tensile rating.... Our Bikes produce no where near these HP figures so these high tensile O or X ring chains should last far longer than any old conventional style chain... ;)  When they are referring to tensile strength of a chain, would that be the same as tensile strength rating for a given piece of metal...?  Maybe it has a different meaning or value with drive chains..?  I'll throw another factor into the chain wear debate, misalignment is also a chain killer, the marks on the swingarm aren't very accurate and can lead to premature chain wear due to the wheel being slightly out of alignment......
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2016, 07:17:11 pm »
Depends a lot on how you ride them....... in addition to how you maintain them.... in addition to tensile strength.....

Perhaps we could get a general consensus on brand quality here.
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Offline Redline it

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2016, 10:06:59 pm »
So are we meant to have measured the length of the chain when it was brand new before it was fitted? Otherwise I am not sure how much you would know it had stretched by.

So when the sprocket teeth are gone and further tightening the chain wont keep it from spinning, that's maximum wear limit.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2016, 10:08:23 pm »
Damn cheap DID chain only lasted 15 miles on my dragbike............
An 'engineering note' here: Tensile Strength is a good comparison for chain LOADS, but not necessarily for chain WEAR. The chains with the highest tensile load ratings are made for slow-moving, non-reciprocating motions, like for dragging heavy things.

That seems not to be the case with motorcycle drive chains Mark, or HD primary chains for that matter, the highest tensile strength is for the strongest motorcycle chains for the highest HP out put. All the best motorcycle chains are around 10,000lbs tensile strength or more, and are rated at over 200HP..... the big 630 Drag chains from EK have a 30,000lb tensile rating.... Our Bikes produce no where near these HP figures so these high tensile O or X ring chains should last far longer than any old conventional style chain... ;)  When they are referring to tensile strength of a chain, would that be the same as tensile strength rating for a given piece of metal...?  Maybe it has a different meaning or value with drive chains..?  I'll throw another factor into the chain wear debate, misalignment is also a chain killer, the marks on the swingarm aren't very accurate and can lead to premature chain wear due to the wheel being slightly out of alignment......

You're catching on to the clues: when the chains are very rigid (i.e. highest tensile strength), they are also very unforgiving of misalignments. When run misalinged, they get hot very quickly of their own volition. We see this often when building industrial conveyor systems that carry heavy parts on pallets: if the conveyors flex too much, the rigid chains often get hot and wear quickly. The choices then are: stiffer conveyors (lots of $$ involved, often not done) or use lesser-(tensile)-strength chains (more often done). What has been happening in this arena of industry these last 'leaner' years (poor economy) since 2008 is: sloppier chains (i.e., those that have thinner sideplates, so they flex more) in an O-ring style have been used to solve a couple of these installations that I have seen. The weaker chains, less than half the tensile strength of the original chains, have lasted several years now, where the first 2 sets of 'stiff' ones lasted less than 3 months each. And, they run cool to the touch..

This was the heart of the "Diamond XL solution" for the CB750 in 1970 when these bikes, with their less-than-rigid frames and swingarms, were flexing the RK chains sideways with their rigid, small-clearanced sideplates into oblivion in 4000 miles or less. The Diamond chain, made for the Sportster 1000 specifically, had super-hard rollers added, but with increased ID clearance over the pins, and the sideplates became hard as nails and quad-staked to those pins, but the clearance to the links themselves was doubled over the ANSI spec. This created a chain that could be twisted sideways more than 10x its width over a 100-link length: RK at the time considered 3x to be totally worn out in comparison! The difference made history, and the Diamond chain with its thinner sideplates was rated at 80 HP in 1970 where the RK heavy-duty plate type was rated 70 HP. Today that same Diamond is rated over 100 HP, and I (among others) have used it in O-ring form on industrial equipment to solve problems similar to the 750's chassis woes of that bygone era.

Tensile strength should be considered with the plate clearance questions as well, IMHO, lest the old demon resurface here! ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 10:14:34 pm »
So are we meant to have measured the length of the chain when it was brand new before it was fitted? Otherwise I am not sure how much you would know it had stretched by.

So when the sprocket teeth are gone and further tightening the chain wont keep it from spinning, that's maximum wear limit.

This reminds me of what happened to my old Honda mentor, in 1969: he had just ridden his Bridgestone 175 2-stroke twin back to Peoria (IL) from his home in upper NY when he got to 'the hill' in town and the bike would not climb it. (This was a bike with 1 of 2 hand-made Vetter Phantom full-length fairings on it, which Jim toured 4 times to NY and back every year at 80 MPH flat-out, the whole way. The other Phantom was on Craig's own Bridgestone 175.) When he hit the Hill, the engine spun up, but the bike stopped. Thinking that somehow his clutch just died, he pushed the bike up the Hill with a passerby's help, then babied it home the last 3/4 mile. The next day we took a look at it, to discover all the teeth on the rear sprocket were gone! He said a few were missing when he adjusted the chain in Indiana, and he noticed the bike would not hold 60 MPH since he hit Illinois, which was why it was midnight when he got home. He figured the last one or two teeth must have fallen off when he hit the Hill at full throttle.
:o
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline 754

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2016, 10:20:55 pm »
18,000 on aTsubaki QR... That is many , many lighting up the tire episodes and chain lasted as long as 3 16 tires... I figured given the hard use pretty good.
 Buddy of mine got 41 or 42,000 on a Diamond..not sure if it was XDL..
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Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2016, 12:37:14 am »
If someone could put up a link where these "Diamond XL" chains can be bought from a trusty seller then I reckon I might just try one. No one here in Southern Tasmania seems to have them in stock. Plus you get a funny look when you ask for them.
Failing that, what is the next best chain to get a hold of?.

Offline Mooshie

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2016, 04:36:16 pm »
Piggy backing onto Old Moe Toe question:  What is the best chain to get for a CB550?  I know that O rings are not recommended (too wide) unless you use spacers (which I am not against if that is the best way to go).
Mark: would love to know what chain you would recommend.  My bike sees a lot of cross country riding.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2016, 07:39:36 pm »
Piggy backing onto Old Moe Toe question:  What is the best chain to get for a CB550?  I know that O rings are not recommended (too wide) unless you use spacers (which I am not against if that is the best way to go).
Mark: would love to know what chain you would recommend.  My bike sees a lot of cross country riding.

I've tried every brand I can think of. The only one I recommend is the Diamond Powersport non-O-ring type. Just one sample: the last one I removed from my bike went 42,000 miles and was only 1% stretched (1 link out of the 100 link length) when I removed it. It is still in the box, in the garage, in case I need it again.

There are many who have (or like) O-ring or X-ring chains, as they have internal lube. But...this does not lube the sprockets, which then pay the price. Non-O-ring chains like the Powersport (aka Harley's XDL chain) deliver 96-98% power, while O-ring chains deliver 93-95%, so on the smaller bikes this can be significant.

I should probably note: I flip the countersprocket every 5k to 7k miles, and the rear sprocket every 10k miles (or 2x the front one), and NEVER flip the chain's direction (per Diamond's 1973-until-now recommendations). I got 75k miles from my last rear sprocket (changed last in 2002). I lube the chain every 3rd tank of gas (about 300 miles or so) and wash it full-blast with the high-pressure carwash, bike on centerstand, about once every 4-6 weeks (unless it rains on me and makes everything a mess, then more often). After washing, I ride about 2-5 miles and centerstand the bike, spray it while the chain is warm, then park until it cools the chain. This sucks the lube into the links. I also run between 1" and 2" slack in the center (CB750) or 3/4" to 1.5" (cB500/550/350F/400F lengths).

...but, that's just one man's method! :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2016, 08:41:13 pm »
Mark, i'll just clear one thing up for you mate, you still lube O, Z and X ring chains, which in turn lubricates the sprocket , anyone that runs them without lube haven't a clue what they are doing... I'd also like to know where you get the quoted power figures for chains. The modern  O Z and X ring chains are around the same weight and even lighter than older style chains of comparable strength, due to better metallurgy, Z and X ring chains are better again than O ring, Z and X ring chains have less internal friction and still hold lubricant as good , or better than O ring chains.. All the chains i've mentioned are stronger than any standard type chain Diamond sells {diamonds strongest standard style of chain is 6600 LBS} , so your results are down to good {often} maintenance and not riding too hard... ;)
You are an old fashioned old bugger... ;D

The difference between X and O ring chains, for anyone who's interested...

http://www.biketorqueracing.co.uk/btr-tech-station/btr-tech-station-chain-and-sprockets/o-ring-and-x-ring-chains
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750 F1 970cc
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Offline 754

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2016, 08:55:35 pm »
Do you think never changing the engine oil is a good idea.
When I oil my chain the pin an roller lube is changed thru contant loss..
 The sealed chain runs in its same lube..any worn metal bits stay in there

I think o ring chains came about due to way too many riders. Not properly maintaining chains..   Any chain that lasted longer was a welcome improvment to the no maintainence crowd..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2016, 09:01:14 pm »
Do you think never changing the engine oil is a good idea.
When I oil my chain the pin an roller lube is changed thru contant loss..
 The sealed chain runs in its same lube..any worn metal bits stay in there

I think o ring chains came about due to way too many riders. Not properly maintaining chains..   Any chain that lasted longer was a welcome improvment to the no maintainence crowd..

No, they came about because they were simply a better design, how often do you regrease your wheel bearings would have been a better question Frank... ;)  These chains have NOTHING in common with engine oil... Didn't have your thinking hat on that time... :P
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Offline flatlander

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2016, 04:32:16 am »

I've tried every brand I can think of. The only one I recommend is the Diamond Powersport non-O-ring type.

did you try the tsubaki delta on the 500/550? that's their nickel-plated non-o-ring chain.
i slapped one on about 3000km ago as it sounded like a good choice. too early to tell...

Offline Mooshie

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Re: Your chain life?
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2016, 02:43:23 pm »
Mark you have never steered me wrong so the  Diamond Powersport non-O-ring it is.
1976 CB550F
Standard disclaimer: Remember I am just a girl--so be nice fellows!