Topic: From Sh*tty to Shiny: Sbeckman7's CB350F Cafe Resto

[sbeckman7]

 CURRENT STATUS: REASSEMBLY (PAGE 8 )

Hi all,

Fairly new to motorcycling (and this forum) as I got my license and first bike a month or two ago, but I've always been a gear head and am currently studying Motorsports Engineering at a school in England.  Home for a few months due to an unplanned "gap-year" but it has given me the opportunity to do something I've always wanted to do: Buy a Honda CB350F, the smallest 4-banger of them all 

The bike needs a fairly extensive restoration, down to frame paint, engine cleaning (need more direction on this), and replacing quite a few components I imagine.  At the top of the list: It has no ignition/key tumbler, no throttle twist grip, wiring harness is in bad shape, front brake is frozen, needs a new battery and new tires, and cosmetically it needs to be taken down to bare metal and re-painted.  Has carbs (not pictured) that will need to be cleaned up and rebuilt.  Hoping I don't need to open the engine as the oil inside looks good, although it's been outside for an unknown amount of time.  No oil leaks.  I am planning to keep it fairly original with bits of cafe racer/lightweight influence.  Currently envisioning a bare metal/black painted contrasting color scheme

It has some quirks but I was surprised that everything I looked at tonight was structurally sound and still functioned as it should (with the exception of the airbox!).  I also found out that a flathead screwdriver works as a suitable key substitute for opening the seat lock

I love small displacement multi cylinder engines, and the CB350F has appealed to me for years now but I was never able to find one at school.  Now that I'm home with a little more time on my hands, I can't wait to get into this project!

As she came home:



Next to my other project, a nearing-completion '97 Triumph Daytona "Cafe" conversion


I then took the compressed air to the frame, loosened the chain (it was CRAZY tight for whatever reason), removed the fenders, seat, battery, and disconnected hoses to clean things up a bit.  The engine feels good to me initially - it kicks with decent compression resistance.  Looking through the intakes of each cylinder, all but one looked good.  The far left (not sure if that's cyl 1 or 4) looked like it might be a little rusty.  The air compressor blew out some rust-dust on that cylinder only as well... Not a ton but not sure what to make of it.  Hopefully it will clear out on startup... Either that or I will be getting a little more familiar with the inside of the engine 

I also began the parts list to determine just what I need to make this thing start again (theoretically).  As far as I can tell, the only parts I'll need to order are a decent twist grip throttle, clutch cable, both ignition coils (spark plug leads severed) , and any remaining hardware needed for the carbs.  I am comfortable enough with the $100 price to devote a lot more $$$ into the project before it begins to make me miserable   With that said, I have a lot on my plate and I'm struggling a bit to come up with a definite game plan.  My current agenda is to purchase all items needed to make her fire up (to assess the health of the engine) and then progress from there.










Question time!

1. Ignition switch is gone, wires have been twisted together (4 of them).  I assume the bike should still be able to crank like this?
2. I definitely want to upgrade the ignition system itself, either with a Dyna S electronic unit or a Hondaman Ignition box.  I think I'll also get new coils when I do that, but in the mean time, how can I test the current coils with a voltmeter? (Sorry, electronics are my weak area  )
3. I have seen carb rebuild kits for around $80 pretty consistently.  While it is much cheaper than having them rebuilt for $2-400, how difficult is it and how long does it normally take?
4. I need to get a throttle cable and twist grip for the first start (ideally).  Should I get new handlebars while I'm at it?  The original metal twist grip is rusted to the OEM bars and I can't for the life of me remove it.


I have just ordered the new wiring harness from 4into1, red Dyna spark leads, and NGK plug caps and spark plugs.  It begins!! 

Looking forward to continuing this thread as the build progresses, and I would love any guidance you guys can offer.  I have seen some incredible builds going on here and hopefully my little CB will be one of them eventually!


Spence

[MoMo]

1.  To get it to fire you only need to run 12v to the black white coil wire (and have clean points). You'll have to use kicker to start it that way.
2.  Coils rarely go bad, our old shop used to have a spark tester that would measure the length of the spark. With the coils you have remove the caps and trim back a 1/4" or so then rescrew the caps back on. 
3.  I 've never used the jets in a rebuild kit just the gaskets.  With properly cleaned carbs you should only need new gaskets and maybe float needles and seats..
4.  That is an aftermarket sleeve(original would have plastic) use heat to remove it.  Here is a link to cb400F style bars  http://www.dimecitycycles.com/7-8-inch-chrome-pre-dilled-supermoto-style-handlebars.html

[sbeckman7]

1.  To get it to fire you only need to run 12v to the black white coil wire (and have clean points). You'll have to use kicker to start it that way.
2.  Coils rarely go bad, our old shop used to have a spark tester that would measure the length of the spark. With the coils you have remove the caps and trim back a 1/4" or so then rescrew the caps back on. 
3.  I 've never used the jets in a rebuild kit just the gaskets.  With properly cleaned carbs you should only need new gaskets and maybe float needles and seats..
4.  That is an aftermarket sleeve(original would have plastic) use heat to remove it.  Here is a link to cb400F style bars  http://www.dimecitycycles.com/7-8-inch-chrome-pre-dilled-supermoto-style-handlebars.html

Thank you sir! So regarding the coils, I bought some new wire along with the caps etc. but it looks like the stock coils have non-replaceable wire?  I guess this means I just need to strip the wires a bit and screw the caps on?  Good to know for the carbs too, I'm hoping the internals all look good.  Thinking I will give it a shot myself and if I fail miserably then I'll seek assistance 

Also good to know for the bars; whatever is on there now is clearly using a different throttle setup as the cable exits the twist grip housing.

Question time!
2. I definitely want to upgrade the ignition system itself, either with a Dyna S electronic unit or a Hondaman Ignition box.  I think I'll also get new coils when I do that, but in the mean time, how can I test the current coils with a voltmeter? (Sorry, electronics are my weak area  )

Give this kit a look as an alternative to Dyna or points:
http://www.c5ignitions.com/motorcycle-ignitions.html

Calj, is the main difference between this unit and the others the ability to modify timing curve and such?  Big price difference!!

[MoMo]

^^ Yep, just strip back a bit as I mentioned earlier.  However, if the wire gets too short, you can splice wire into it.  I think NGK makes a splice kit if it comes to that.  There are threads on the net as how to replace wires all the way into the coils.  I'd look for another set before I did that

[sbeckman7]

^^ Yep, just strip back a bit as I mentioned earlier.  However, if the wire gets too short, you can splice wire into it.  I think NGK makes a splice kit if it comes to that.  There are threads on the net as how to replace wires all the way into the coils.  I'd look for another set before I did that

That would be great if they can still get this old thing going   I will try that as soon as my caps and plugs arrive.  I have a battery I can use for testing so now the main priorities will be getting the carbs cleaned/rebuilt and getting a throttle on those bars (or preferably new ones).

Which brings me to... *drumroll*.. my first design decision!  I'm a little torn between bar style at the moment.  I love the position of the stockers and wouldn't mind getting a new set with the same geometry, but I'm also thinking about some cafe bars.  My only concern is that I am uncomfortably hunched over with the cafe bars...  Everything else will be stock (seat, ride height, etc) so I guess it comes down to the slight drop and forward movement of the cafe's.  I'll try to figure this one out by the end of the day.  Might need to do a lot of picture browsing 

Another question: As my bike came w/o airbox and plenum, I want to purchase the Steel Dragon stainless steel air box right away.  Do you think the bike would still fire with stock jetting?

[MoMo]

It'll fire for sure, may not run all that well.  Did you take a look at the link I gave you for CB400F replica bars?

[kslrr]

I'm following this one.

[sbeckman7]

It'll fire for sure, may not run all that well.  Did you take a look at the link I gave you for CB400F replica bars?

Thanks Kslrr

Momo, I did check out those bars.  Price is right Not sure if I want chrome or black though.  Currently trying to make a decision   I guess the one big advantage of those bars is that they hide the throttle cable, but I assume I would also need a specific twist grip to work with that?  Most of the ones I saw on dimecitycylces and 4into1 seemed to be "universal". 

[sbeckman7]

Made a little more progress today, largely in thanks to my newly arrived Vessel screwdrivers!  Can't believe they actually lived up to all the hype    I removed the handlebars, headlight switch and engine start/kill switch assemblies, warning lamp assembly, and began to formulate a game plan for the carbs.  There was a family of roly-poly's in the engine kill switch housing and a colony of flying aunts in the points housing    The carbs are currently sitting under a coating (not submerged because I didn't have enough) of degreaser with a little WD-40 thrown in for good measure (aka I needed to get some stubborn screws loose!).  I have loosened most of the JIS screws on the carbs but just to make sure nothing was fused shut or stripped, so they're still in one piece.  Didn't take me long to realize that my new handlebars will also be of a similar geometry.  I ruled out cafe bars because I want this thing to be comfortable.  Besides, it's not like I'll be going fast 

How does this thing look to the more experienced eyes of the forum?



Rusty bars!!  Am I correct in assuming these are stock? Looking at replacement's for similar geometry, but would prefer black over chrome.


I also was able to remove most of the paint covering the VIN tag!  Looks like my guess of '72 MY was correct with a 7/72 production date 


Wanted to see how difficult it was to recover some of the metal from oxidation/rust.  This was before/after ~10 minutes with a scotch brite pad:



Same deal with the frame, wire wheeled it for a few mins just to see.  It will be getting sand blasted and powder coated down the line.  With that said, I am contemplating how a bare metal frame would look with a clear coat over it.  Wire wheeled/sanded to get some brushed effects and all



Just ordered a new set of carburetor isolators/mounts with the accompanying clamps and o-rings.  Now deciding on new handlebars and a decision: how to proceed with carbs (DIY or send them out).  Tick tock 

[MoMo]

made in 72 would most likely make it a 1973 model-that is how Honda did it.  Motocross bars on a CB350F is too much

[sbeckman7]

The C5 is priced comparably when you compare buying a new electronic ignition, coils, wires and caps. It is optical in its trigger, and has 4 possible curves for tuning.

As for the bars on your bike, they're not stock, those are Motocross style.

As for your ignition plate, it looks fine. Replace the Condensers though as part of the initial tune-up.

When you remove the oxidation from he engine cases, you are now left with raw aluminum. It will oxidize again, perhaps not so badly, but it will not retain that finish without effort or protection.

Got it.  Motocross bars  That's too much... Someone had a sense of humor I guess.  I will order new condensers as well.  Decided to try and tackle the carbs myself for the time being as I just budgeted out a lot of the big ticket items and I think it will be difficult to get this thing how I want for my ~$1500 budget I have set.  Time will tell

[sbeckman7]

If you can squeak a few $ into your budget, send those finned tappet covers to member Noblehops for him to Vaporblast them. They will be the Bee's knees afterwards - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150819.150.html

I've exchanged a few words with him already and I would love to have some of his work into this engine!  He thought the block and cylinders might be too far gone to save but perhaps I could try a "test batch" with the tappet covers and we can go from there

[sbeckman7]

Conquered my fears and tore into the carbs tonight!  The linkages and stuff aren't as bad as they looked (to me).  Two have stuck slides so I will see how to proceed after the WD-40 soaks in, and as for the cleaning I was about to order a can of Berryman's when I just realized I could throw them in the parts washer at the dealership I used to work at instead   So I'll try that first and update accordingly.  I also have to figure out how to remove the carburetor "isolators" that normally connect the carbs to the cylinder head.  All the rubber is gone and only the metal flanges remain, but they seem to have a death grip and the screwdrivers got me nowhere.  Think I'll torch them for a bit tomorrow and see if that helps.

Parts ordered tonight: 4 Carb gasket sets (thanks iiAtlas for the link)
                                Steel Dragon Log Intake
                                Carburetor Isolators, clamps, and gaskets

[grcamna2]

That's an interesting baffle on the aftermarket muffler to the CB400F factory 4into1 header;that baffle in the rear of your muffler almost looks 'plugged' ,I wonder how that one will breath or if it can(or even needs to be) be modified..?
The engine is a CB350F according to the engine number ?

[sbeckman7]

That's an interesting baffle on the aftermarket muffler to the CB400F factory 4into1 header;that baffle in the rear of your muffler almost looks 'plugged' ,I wonder how that one will breath or if it can(or even needs to be) be modified..?
The engine is a CB350F according to the engine number ?

It is indeed interesting, and has an awfully small exit.  I imagine it's fairly restrictive but I plan on replacing the entire thing with a black MAC 4-1 system

[MoMo]

Use a heat to help free the stuck slides.  On a far gone bike a heat gun can be your best friend

[sbeckman7]

Use a heat to help free the stuck slides.  On a far gone bike a heat gun can be your best friend

I will try that tomorrow!  Carb Gurus: Here is where I stand (I only took apart 1 so I have 3 other references of how it's supposed to go back together  )





I will only be taking the bigger parts to the parts washer tomorrow, the smaller ones I will soak in something and do by hand.  Anything to look out for?  Does that brass insert in the Carb Body need to come out?

[MoMo]

Brass insert in the float bowl just needs to be clear.  That carb looks clean compared to many of the ones I have seen.  The screws that hold the throttle plate on were peened over and usually are very difficult to remove, sometimes removing them crossthreads the arm and most always the screws are not reusable.

[sbeckman7]

Good to know, thanks guys. I'll look for that clip on the needle and leave the other butterflies in place.. Consider myself lucky for the first one I guess! I will be dropping the carb parts off in the parts washer and leaving them in for 30 mins or so.

[sbeckman7]

Got my first parts shipment today! New wiring harness looks incredible compared to what's on the bike now (and what I'm used to dealing with in general ) Plugs and caps are standard issue, nothing special there. 



The other thing I did today, after a bit of research, was buy a 25lb box of ground Walnut Shells, 3 ft of plastic tubing, and hooked everything up to the air compressor when I got home.  I had decent success using the 2nd of the two nozzles I tried (first one was a harbor freight "air gun" nozzle with too large a diameter that didn't do anything, and the second was a standard air nozzle akin to something you would find on a blow gun).  I blasted the carburetor housing after getting everything back from the parts washer (which also had limited success) and this is the result:

I would estimate it took about 15-20 mins once I got the setup dialed in.  I wouldn't call it clean yet, but I think it'll be a good way to get the carbs to a satisfactory level of cleanliness before they go back on the bike


I also feel like I'm making more progress on how I want to design this bike.  Given that 95% of the builds I have seen on this website and others utilize a black frame (and many a polished engine), and my desire to build something with a subtle unique style, I plan to leave the frame as brushed steel with a clear matte powder coat over it.  The engine will be painted black, which also helps me in the sense that my engine's aluminum isn't the most beautiful to begin with.  Just wanted to share the beginnings of my "vision."  Hopefully more to come soon, although tomorrow morning I have plans to meet a friend and pick up another CB350F for him

[sbeckman7]

Just got home, tried to kick over the engine for no specific reason, and the kickstarter locks up after about 70* of rotation... Any ideas?

[MoMo]

Does the motor turn freely by hand? 

[sbeckman7]

Does the motor turn freely by hand?

Turns out it was seized, I was able to get it unstuck by rolling the bike back and forth in 3rd gear.  After that it kicked freely again and I poured a little seafoam in to each cylinder to make sure that doesn't happen again. It must have had zero lubication as it kicks much smoother now and the faint squeaking sound is gone.  Unfortunately, there was a negative side to the latest series of events.. stripped the #2 spark plug thread while trying to remove the plug   It was absolutely frozen and even after a good amount of WD-40 it just ended up taking little bits of aluminum with it...

What now?  Threaded insert?

[grcamna2]

Does the motor turn freely by hand?

Turns out it was seized, I was able to get it unstuck by rolling the bike back and forth in 3rd gear.  After that it kicked freely again and I poured a little seafoam in to each cylinder to make sure that doesn't happen again. It must have had zero lubication as it kicks much smoother now and the faint squeaking sound is gone.  Unfortunately, there was a negative side to the latest series of events.. stripped the #2 spark plug thread while trying to remove the plug   It was absolutely frozen and even after a good amount of WD-40 it just ended up taking little bits of aluminum with it...

What now?  Threaded insert?

'off with his head' 

[sbeckman7]