Author Topic: Are these points still good? and how important is static timing? (Read 11332 times)

ChopSticks · « **on:** February 08, 2016, 07:39:57 PM »

How can you tell if points/condensers are good or not? also any idea how to tell if they're aftermarket/brand? I know the plate says TEC but can't find that "HA" imprint on the points. just want to check if they're daiichi so I can switch them out after not reading so many great posts about them here.

Also I checked static timing yesterday (the bike was able to start and idle previously, but couldn't go around the block, hopefully just from an intake leak) anywho, when I did the static timing the continuity sound stopped right between the 1-4 for 1&4 points and between F - 2 for 2&3 points. Ideally it should stop at the F marks before both right? Since the bike was previously running I didn't want to change the position of the points until I understood what effects does it have? the gap was good on both points at .014

scottly · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2016, 07:48:55 PM »

Quote from: ChopSticks on February 08, 2016, 07:39:57 PM

Ideally it should stop at the F marks before both right?

Correct. Rotate the points plate clockwise to set the 1-4 static timing to the F mark, then set the 2-3 points seperatly to their F mark.

Flyin900 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2016, 07:55:46 PM »

Those are definately aftermarket points and not sure whAt you are showing in regards to the timing but both are a number of degrees off the F 1 and F 2 marks, yet I don't know if you have the points just opening or not.
If you are breaking the circuit with a light or audible sensor and the points are just opening from closed then your timing is off based on the position of the F marks in you screen shots

Bike may run but not well with that timing set up.

mrfish2 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2016, 08:06:46 PM »

Quote from: Flyin900 on February 08, 2016, 07:55:46 PM

Those are definately aftermarket points

+1

The stock points will be dimpled exactly like the plate and say TEC on them. If the condensers are aftermarket they will have some sort of marking on them somewhere.

ChopSticks · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2016, 09:27:16 PM »

During the test the points were not touched at all. I didn't even have to regap them since they were already at .014. All I did was hook a multimeter to the live points and ground the engine fin

If the b was previously running is it safe to assume the point and condenser is fine? Or is there an addition test I can run to test them?

ChopSticks · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2016, 09:28:01 PM »

Will the aftermarket condenser marking be branded like the TEC? Or should I look for a not so obvious marking?

mystic_1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2016, 04:54:28 AM »

From the sounds of things, the bike should be able to run with those parts, but it won't run well with those settings.

The condensors are only there to prevent sparks at the points when they open, due to EMF backlash. They are just big capacitors that soak up the surge, testing them on the bench can be tricky.

The points likely need to be cleaned. I'm pretty sure I can see evidence of this in your pics. Cleaning them may (will) alter the gap, so check them and reset them afterwards.

Then do your timing.

mystic_1

ChopSticks · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2016, 06:31:49 AM »

Can you elaborate on the evidence? Just want to know what I should look for

Also will just a points file and contact cleaner be sufficient?

I guess if its hard to test the condenser any sure tell signs that one has failed or is not working properly?

therobbstory · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2016, 07:45:28 AM »

You can test condensers by charging them up with 9-12v for a few seconds, then touching the positive lead to the condenser body. If you get a spark, it's probably good.

Check the black/white wire coming off your coils. Clean the bullet connectors and check for continuity. This wire has a tendency to break.

Are you getting spark on all four plugs? How are the caps? Resistance across these should be equal. If not, replace.

ChopSticks · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2016, 12:14:05 PM »

Charging the condensers is just simply connecting the wires to the motorcycle battery via alligator clips for a few seconds right?

I've checked the continuity from the bullet connectors of the points if I'm checking the other end am I just checking to make sure there's continuity or should there be none? (No beeping?)

How do I test resistance in the caps? Visually I didn't see any cracking and the rubbers are some what still pliable not extremely hard like the rubber boots but also not as soft as a new fuel line either

I'll try to test the spark on all four plugs this week, it's just simply connecting the battery, taking out a plug and grounding it to the case and turn the engine over looking for a spark right? Or do I need to measure the actual voltage some way?

flybox1 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2016, 12:21:22 PM »

plug caps should be hard. put your ohm meter in each end of the cap to test
5K ohm caps should read about 5K ohms.
report your findings.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2016, 04:17:30 PM »

Quote from: ChopSticks on February 09, 2016, 06:31:49 AM

Can you elaborate on the evidence? Just want to know what I should look for

Irregular surface detected!

Typically one face of the point develops a mound of deposits and the other side develops a matching pit. This is from arcing. A points file can be used to clean them up and dress them back to square and true. An ordinary file is too coarse and will leave scratches.

mystic_1

ChopSticks · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2016, 12:55:11 PM »

Ah thanks for the clarification

Assuming I don't necessarily have to look out for anything special when choosing a points file right? would this suffice?

http://smile.amazon.com/Cal-Van-Tools-693-Ignition-Point/dp/B0067YFPBC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455137611&sr=8-1&keywords=points+file

Is it just a matter of filing the points until they are flat and even again? kind of like sanding?

flybox1 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2016, 01:02:11 PM »

I have the Stanley Proto, but those you pictured will work
Files only 'file' in one direction, so no, they're not like sanding w sandpaper.

ChopSticks · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2016, 10:37:06 AM »

alright just put an order in, is static timing sufficient? or should I also buy a timing light? and if timing light is required, assuming the adjustments are made by adjusting the timing plates similar to static timing?

was thinking about this one:

http://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3551-Inductive-Timing-Light/dp/B000EVYH72/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455143144&sr=8-1&keywords=timing+light

Are there any major differences between inductive, digital, and advance?

Reading the reviews for the amazon linked one it doesn't show RPM, is that needed?

HondaMan · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2016, 12:36:20 PM »

Quote from: ChopSticks on February 11, 2016, 10:37:06 AM

alright just put an order in, is static timing sufficient? or should I also buy a timing light? and if timing light is required, assuming the adjustments are made by adjusting the timing plates similar to static timing?

was thinking about this one:

http://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3551-Inductive-Timing-Light/dp/B000EVYH72/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455143144&sr=8-1&keywords=timing+light

Are there any major differences between inductive, digital, and advance?

Reading the reviews for the amazon linked one it doesn't show RPM, is that needed?

That looks to be a typical inductive timing light, will likely work just fine.

Static timing is OK, but not always accurate. In addition, it does not detect a "bent shaft" condition, where the little points shaft that is behind that 6mm nut, holding the advancer to the engine, got bent by someone pulling the big nut back & forth with the sparkplugs still in the engine...this frequently bends this shaft, which will show up under the timing light as "jitter", where the timing jumps back & forth on (usually) the 2-3 points set. It only appears under a timing light, but indicates the shaft needs to be straightened again. After which, statid timing should only be done with the sparkplugs out of the engine, to prevent it happening again.

ChopSticks · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2016, 01:00:09 PM »

how hard is it to straighten the shaft? would I have to pull the engine out?

Personally I've only been turning the engine forward/clockwise since I've read never to turn it CCW here among other places. (can't really speak for the POs). I tried looking up "jitter" on youtube but didn't find much, any idea what exactly I should be looking for?

Also I did test the static timing with the plugs in (only turning the engine clockwise), when I go to set the plates with the correct continuity at the F mark should I pull all the spark plugs? or is it too late?

flybox1 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2016, 01:14:45 PM »

the shaft can be double-nutted and turned out (CCW) if it in fact needs to be straightened.
yes, ALL the plugs should come out

"jitter"
here's how to check for it and correct.....ty evanphi

ChopSticks · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2016, 01:26:52 PM »

Thanks, but do the plugs only have to come out if I am turning the engine CCW? if I've only been rotating it CW it's alright with the plugs in right? just wondering because the manual has the adjustments after the plug inspection

Also thanks for the video source but I thought the jitter could only be seen with a timing light? from the looks of the video it just seems as if they are starting the bike without the spark plugs wires plugged in

flybox1 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2016, 02:01:58 PM »

ALL plugs out, anytime you are turning the engine over by hand.
Dont turn it CCW. Valves, cam, cam chain, rockers......are not meant to go that way.

ChopSticks · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2016, 02:07:03 PM »

Duly noted, is there a reason why the manual doesn't specific taking the plugs out? I'll take it it's safe to assume that I have a bent shaft since I've been turning it with the plugs in?

PeWe · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2016, 02:07:21 PM »

Add Hondaman's ignition module and you dont need the condensors anymore. It is possible to have them connected just for sure if the ign module will fail and you can bypass it and run std again. But it will probably never fail.

I have a smaller battery and the module mounted on top. I have not found out if Hondaman ign module need good cooling and if I have to remove the layer of vulc tape I have isolated it with.

I check and adjust the points gap with a dwell meter when engine is running. Both will be exactly the same very easy. When I adjust 2-3, that point change ign timing when it is not as fixed as 1-4 point. Check dwell 2-3 again and ign with timing lamp. I have complete TEC points

Synced carbs and the engine will run very smooth.

ChopSticks · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2016, 02:16:45 PM »

Quote from: PeWe on February 11, 2016, 02:07:21 PM

I check and adjust the points gap with a dwell meter when engine is running. Both will be exactly the same very easy. When I adjust 2-3, that point change ign timing when it is not as fixed as 1-4 point. Check dwell 2-3 again and ign with timing lamp. I have complete TEC points

Synced carbs and the engine will run very smooth.

just googled "dwell meter" and it looks very similar to a multimeter, how do you check the gap with a dwell meter and the engine running? Assuming dwell and timing light serve the same purpose?

Kenzo · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2016, 07:00:47 AM »

Quote from: HondaMan on February 11, 2016, 12:36:20 PM

Quote from: ChopSticks on February 11, 2016, 10:37:06 AM
alright just put an order in, is static timing sufficient? or should I also buy a timing light? and if timing light is required, assuming the adjustments are made by adjusting the timing plates similar to static timing?

was thinking about this one:

http://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3551-Inductive-Timing-Light/dp/B000EVYH72/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455143144&sr=8-1&keywords=timing+light

Are there any major differences between inductive, digital, and advance?

Reading the reviews for the amazon linked one it doesn't show RPM, is that needed?

That looks to be a typical inductive timing light, will likely work just fine.

Static timing is OK, but not always accurate. In addition, it does not detect a "bent shaft" condition, where the little points shaft that is behind that 6mm nut, holding the advancer to the engine, got bent by someone pulling the big nut back & forth with the sparkplugs still in the engine...this frequently bends this shaft, which will show up under the timing light as "jitter", where the timing jumps back & forth on (usually) the 2-3 points set. It only appears under a timing light, but indicates the shaft needs to be straightened again. After which, statid timing should only be done with the sparkplugs out of the engine, to prevent it happening again.

Quote from: flybox1 on February 11, 2016, 01:14:45 PM

the shaft can be double-nutted and turned out (CCW) if it in fact needs to be straightened.
yes, ALL the plugs should come out

"jitter"
here's how to check for it and correct.....ty evanphi

Very interesting...mine seemed a little jumpy but I wrote it off to cheap POS timing light.

Also I would have thought that most of the resistance to the engine rotating on these multi cylinder motors was the valve springs...

TIA,
Kenzo

mystic_1 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2016, 07:42:53 AM »

Turning over the engine using the "nut" on the points end is right there in the service manuals, and I've been doing it for years with zero issues.

I think the problem is that people tend to push too hard on it, instead of easing it over carefully.

I'm more worried about stripping out the two little nub things where the back of that fake nut thing engages the advancer.

mystic_1

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Author Topic: Are these points still good? and how important is static timing? (Read 11332 times)