Author Topic: Help with starting gremlins (Read 2174 times)

dpearce · « **on:** February 16, 2016, 06:56:15 AM »

1976 CB550...I know this topic gets beat to death, but maybe someone can get me pointed in the right direction.
When I first bought the bike a few months ago, the start button worked fine, however battery was old and week so I just kick-started. After I removed the right hand control to swap bars, the old pushbutton crumbled into a hundred little pieces. Bought new Honda right hand switch (ouch), and bought a new, fully charged battery. Now all I get is the solenoid click clicking. 12V to the battery side, but only 4V (+/-) on the starter side when the button is pushed. My first thought was a bad solenoid, however when I bridge the two posts with a screw driver, I still get no starter spin. I have began cleaning all the connections to make sure everything is tight and shiny, but since the new right hand switch is the only thing I really changed, I'm wondering if that could be part of the problem. If I get the click, click, doesn't that mean it's grounding properly and doing it job (??).

Any help would with a testing sequence would be appreciated. I'm half-way literate with a meter and can read a wiring diagram.

Thanks

540nova · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2016, 07:32:51 AM »

Some handlebar switches require a ground to the bar itself thus you need a clean shiny place where the switch rests. I would look into that for starters, no pun intended.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dpearce · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2016, 07:39:12 AM »

Yeah, I wondered about that. All the connectors/wire colors matched the stock, so I plugged & played. Worth a shot- I'll try sanding the paint off the new bars.
I figured that if the switch makes the solenoid click, it is grounding properly and all is good...

calj737 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2016, 08:03:52 AM »

Quote from: 540nova on February 16, 2016, 07:32:51 AM

Some handlebar switches require a ground to the bar itself thus you need a clean shiny place where the switch rests. I would look into that for starters, no pun intended.

That is true, but, by shorting out the solenoid and still not getting a spinning starter says the issue is between the battery and starter.

The click-click-click is evidence of a weak charge being sent to the starter motor. And if you're getting only 4v on the starter side of the solenoid, then I'd suspect the solenoid is the problem. You can remove the cap and clean the contacts inside between the studs to insure you're transmitting the most voltage, but if for some reason the solenoid is shot, replace it.

Just confirm that the solenoid is using the stock heavy gauge wires from the battery to the solenoid, the solenoid to starter, and that the battery is properly grounded to a clean chassis mount. And that the copper lug connectors on the stock heavy gauge wires are themselves bright, shiny and clean.

dpearce · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2016, 08:21:18 AM »

Thanks, everything looks stock, but I will take all the connections off and re-clean/tighten. Just ordered a new solenoid, will try that too. Looks like I have to remove the side cover to get to the actual starter motor on a 76? Took the access cover off, but the feed wire is not visible.

calj737 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2016, 11:30:05 AM »

When you say the "feed wire" to the Starter Motor, do you mean from the solenoid? Theres a cover on top of the case that provides access to the Starter Motor, but removal/replacement usually requires the shift cover to be removed.

If you want to verify the Starter Motor is good, use a jumper between the Starter Motor lead and the battery POS. Make sure you're in NEUTRAL, deliver 12v to the Starter and you should get a cranking motor. If so, focus on the solenoid

dpearce · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2016, 12:29:38 PM »

Yes, the wire from the solenoid to the starter. I'll try the jumper. I was hoping to get to the post on the starter itself to try jumping as well, but the top panel cover doesn't allow access to the POS wire best I can see. Removing the shift cover that big a deal?

calj737 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2016, 12:32:19 PM »

Removing it is not a big deal. Sounds like someone removed the starter wire? No wonder it doesn't start

But that seems to be at odds with your first post:

Quote from: dpearce on February 16, 2016, 06:56:15 AM

When I first bought the bike a few months ago, the start button worked fine, however battery was old and week so I just kick-started.

So what happened to the wire since you first bought the bike, and replaced the battery (replacing the battery wouldn't involve the solenoid)?

dpearce · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2016, 12:38:57 PM »

No, the starter wire has not been touched. Only swapped out batteries. I meant that I would like to test that wire, but cannot get to the connection on the actual starter, due to the shift cover. I can only test it at the solenoid post.
I'll get that cover off tonight and check it out.

calj737 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2016, 12:41:39 PM »

Test it where it connects to the solenoid. Disconnect from solenoid, jumper to battery POS. Done. Leave the covers in tact. Your problem appears to be centered around the solenoid anyway.

dpearce · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2016, 12:45:44 PM »

Will do, thanks. Hopefully just the solenoid.

Vinhead1957 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2016, 06:19:10 AM »

After you jumped the big terminals on the solenoid and the starter didn't turn, it proves the problem is the starter motor.

calj737 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2016, 10:56:07 AM »

Quote from: Vinhead1957 on February 18, 2016, 06:19:10 AM

After you jumped the big terminals on the solenoid and the starter didn't turn, it proves the problem is the starter motor.

Not trying to argue, but that is not conclusive. It may very well be that the battery voltage is too low to spin the starter, the wiring to the starter is suspect, the solenoid is bad, and therefore not making internal contact between the posts, etc.

What is more definitive is supplying a full 12v directly to the starter motor from a known good source, and grounding that power supply to the motor. This would spin the starter motor if the motor is operational. But since his initial post indicated no problems with starting, only a deteriorated starter button and a battery replacement, its unusual to suspect the starter motor has suddenly gone bad in addition. I suspect theres a ground problem with the battery install, possibly a solenoid problem, or a very weak voltage problem at the battery.

dpearce · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2016, 12:30:07 PM »

Ohmed out the negative battery cable to double check it doesn't have a break, sanded/cleaned all surfaces bright and shiny, reattached. Voltage at the new battery sitting cold is 12.83V. As soon as I can manage the side cover off, I will run a jumper straight to the starter, and test that feed wire as well. New solenoid valve arrived today. Cheap, so I will probably just swap that out for good measurel.
Aggravating.

dpearce · « **Reply #14 on:** February 29, 2016, 07:48:39 AM »

Ok, an update...sorta. I now have a new solenoid & rebuilt starter to go along with my new battery and new right-hand controls. Starter will now engage with the pushbutton, but doesn't seem to have enough juice to make it spin enough to start. Struggles. I can hook up an external car battery (using a separate ground to the frame) with much higher cranking power, and it works perfectly.
I've tested everything I know to test, but I keep thinking there is a grounding issue. Even though the main battery cables ohm out ok, and my connections are clean and tight, is there value in just replacing those as well? Is there any way that the starter motor somehow isn't grounding properly internally?

Thanks

calj737 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 29, 2016, 08:39:08 AM »

Can you take a voltage reading at the solenoid studs? It is possible there's too much voltage drop from the solenoid to the starter motor due corrosion for the battery to spin the motor.

But, if you have no problems with a secondary battery, my suspicion is still with your bikes battery being a problem. Can you take it for a load test?

dpearce · « **Reply #16 on:** February 29, 2016, 01:19:41 PM »

I'll check those voltages tonight. It very well may be the battery, or a combination of the two. I opted for a cheapo Exide brand. This bike's charging system actually works well, and I prefer kick starting most of the time, so I didn't think I needed a super great battery. I'll pull it off and get it tested as well.

calj737 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 29, 2016, 01:21:57 PM »

You need a quality battery. One that accepts a charge, holds it, and has sufficient cranking amps (>180) to spin your motor over. MotoBatt, Scorpion and others are both good quality and inexpensive.

madmtnmotors · « **Reply #18 on:** February 29, 2016, 05:18:46 PM »

And if that doesn't work you can always try one of these:

http://www.gremlinbells.com/

dpearce · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2016, 08:11:32 AM »

I'll look into that gremlin bell...haha

I was sure it wasn't the starter, but after tested a little more, I noticed the starter wire heating up more than it should. Bench tested again, and experienced more of the same overheating. Something wrong possibly causing excessive resistance. I'm dropping it off today to a local starter shop to get more info. Hope it can be repaired, b/c wow they are pricey...

I'll definitely look into a better battery as well. Like I said, I will be kick starting more than not, so I grabbed that cheap Exide thinking it would be fine.

calj737 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 01, 2016, 08:52:56 AM »

A battery is more than just a source for a electric start. It's health is critical to the charging and operation of your bike once it's running.

dpearce · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2016, 03:57:12 PM »

Ok, unlikely solution found....took the starter to a shop, he thought that by the sound it was making, it was the little bronze bushing going bad. That was the only thing I didn't replace from the rebuild kit, b/c I'm really not sure how you get it out. Got it back today with the new bushing, stuck it back on the bike, starts like brand new!
Lesson learned, even though the bushing looked fine, go ahead and have it replaced regardless.
One less gremlin...

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Author Topic: Help with starting gremlins (Read 2174 times)